Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 07:34

I have just done the maths to confirm, that the scam I am suggesting above, is physically possible. If I assume it uses lithium ion cells like the ones in this drone pack, then 4000 Wh (14S8P) would occupy only 11% of the volume inside the Sirius case and make up 30% of its weight, 30% of its cost and 100% of its capacity. [Edit: And last about 200 cycles] And there would still be plenty of room inside the case for some electronics and up to 80 of those 3000 F 2.7 V supercaps (20S4P) as window-dressing.

I don't expect to find a DC-DC, [Edit: as would be needed to make] full use of the supercaps. I expect the capacitor pack to just be connected in parallel with the lithium pack.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 12:41

weber wrote:
Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 18:11
But I am disappointed that none of the founders is an opera singer or an alchemist, or claiming guidance from Swami Muktananda. :)
Ah the good ol' days :lol:

So knowing the claims on this product are bogus.
IS the Australian supplier being scammed OR are they scammers too?
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 12:43

weber wrote:
Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 07:34
I don't expect to find a DC-DC making full use of the supercaps.
Yeah most dc/dc only deal with 3:1 or 4:1 input ranges.
So there will always be some not used.
That is unless you put some in series with a battery...
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Sat, 10 Mar 2018, 11:09

I’ve just joined this discussion. We import the KilowattLabs Supercapacitor modules. I’d love to answer any questions about it.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by jonescg » Sat, 10 Mar 2018, 12:37

Sure - my first question:

How many kWh worth of Li-ion cells are inside the 3.5 kWh module?
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Sat, 10 Mar 2018, 16:43

Hi. There are no lithium ion cells in the modules. There is a lithium electrode in the graphene super capacitors. There are no electrochemical reactions in the unit. What makes you think. Capacitor would need a lithium ion cell in it?

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Sat, 10 Mar 2018, 16:46

I notice that Richo and Weber seem to have a lot to say. Would be happy to answer any questions thy have too.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Sat, 10 Mar 2018, 17:10

Supercaps wrote:
Sat, 10 Mar 2018, 16:43
What makes you think. Capacitor would need a lithium ion cell in it?
This page on the KiloWattLabs website:
http://www.kilowattlabs.com/energy-stor ... ntage.html
Click the button marked "Charge Retention Circuit", or just scroll all the way to the end, to see this:

ChargeRetentionCircuit.png
ChargeRetentionCircuit.png (176.84 KiB) Viewed 961 times
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Sat, 10 Mar 2018, 18:03

Supercaps wrote:
Sat, 10 Mar 2018, 16:43
Hi. There are no lithium ion cells in the modules. There is a lithium electrode in the graphene super capacitors.
You guys really should get your story straight. After 9:40 in this video you say the supercaps are compostable because they are made of carbon and paper wrapped in aluminium. And you say its very safe and won't catch on fire by itself, even if you drop it, because it's only paper and carbon. Now you say there's a lithium electrode!
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Sat, 10 Mar 2018, 18:30

Supercaps wrote:
Sat, 10 Mar 2018, 16:46
I notice that Richo and Weber seem to have a lot to say. Would be happy to answer any questions thy have too.
Why not just respond to what we've already written, by allowing a trusted third party to video a capacity test followed by a teardown.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Sat, 10 Mar 2018, 20:58

Hi Weber, the lithium ion electrode is part of the charge retention circuit. Lithium ion electrode is a minute % of the product, is non toxic and non flammable. Lithium ion chemical batteries are toxic due to the electrolyte, we do not use toxic batteries in our products. I just made a video of a capacity test.
https://youtu.be/CzqmWgBSrHE
If you genuinely need more evidence you could come to see us and test it to any level that you like, you could also come to Smart Energy Conference in Sydney and meet our team and test it in public. We’ve already 100% cycle tested for 3000 cycles at 1.5C, 14 cycles per day, and the test is still going.
Our doors are open. You can be the trusted third party you speak of in your post.
If you have a specific question, just ask.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Sat, 10 Mar 2018, 22:55

I'm sorry Paul, but I think you've been duped. I have no idea why you think you are dealing with supercapacitors there. Or why you think supercapacitors are necessary to explain that behaviour. That behaviour is exactly what I'd expect from a battery consisting of 13S lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (NMC) cells. 46 to 54 V corresponds to 3.54 to 4.15 V per cell. NMC has a fairly linear voltage versus energy curve in that range. A capacitor would have a parabolic voltage versus energy curve. If it's a capacitor, it can go all the way down to zero volts without harm. I know the SP Pro won't work down to zero volts, but it will work down to 40 volts. Show us what the voltage curve looks like if you discharge it down to 40 volts at constant power.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Sun, 11 Mar 2018, 05:35

Hi Weber, yes it is true that a super capacitor goes to zero if it is treated as a regular capacitor. The super capacitors work from 2.7 to 0. Part of the IP is the high energy density of the super capacitor and the charge retention circuit. We are now at about 100Wh/kg. The second part of the IP is the electronics which allows extraction of most of the energy from the super capacitor with a custom method of DC up volting to overcome the 0-2V range for energy extraction. We just realeased a car/boat battery replacement also which weighs 8.1kg, 480Wh and has a 12 & 24V option at 800CCA. More products are coming out soon. You’ll be able to buy any of them and disassemble to your hearts content. If you don’t want to buy one you can come and see us in Mitcham Victoria and we’ll open it up. There is no trick just really clever application of technology. Really happy for you to keep asking questions. Not sure how to post an image in this forum. I can supply voltage curves etc too. Maybe a way to take away your reservations is to discharge the unit to 0V then recharge it to 54V. Would that help? I’ll make a video and post it. 🙂

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Rusdy » Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 09:31

Hi Supercaps, can you please list your supercap 'cells' (i.e. the capacitor itself) in your store? I wanted to buy the supercap itself, but alas, not listed in your store. You have the module for AUD4,260 currently, but I believe you'll sell more of them if you list the 'cells' itself. At AUD1.20/Wh price even with the electronics and the lot, I'm sold at your technology. Your supercap 'cells', I'm hoping, will be selling much less than a dollar / Wh without the rest of the electronics?

I'll buy the supercap immediately if listed in your store (as per your spec, i.e. high temperature performance, long life cycle, not necessarily high charge/discharge rate) for much less than a dollar / Wh.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 10:43

Hi Rudsy, sorry we on sell as a module as the electronics plays a big part on using the total available energy. We have a lot of new configs coming out soon. We have a 12V, 24V, 36V, 48V, 120V in various capacities and form factors. Let me know what voltage and dimensions and i’ll See if we can help.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 12:32

You say you have the golden goose but only sell the golden eggs in the dozen in a sealed locked box.
No surprise people are skeptical.
No one will believe until one of those eggs are cracked open...

So you are either a Doctor selling snake oil or an Ostrich with your head in the sand.
Regardless of what your are the reality of the product will be the same.
Supercaps wrote:
Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 10:43
..the electronics plays a big part on using the total available energy.
If you have 10 glasses of water regardless if you stack them on top of each other or side by side the most you can suck through the straw is 10 glasses of water...
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Mon, 12 Mar 2018, 12:42

Assuming you are an Ostrich I would suggest investing the $2k and having an independent test lab to crack it open and material test it before you end up broke.
Remember, under consumer law, if you sell a product as having a "supercap" as the main part of the product and it's found not to any one if not all your customers can get a refund.
Then there is the ongoing court cases for fraud.
Inability to start/run another business for x number of years.

I doub't palming this off to the Manufacturer will work either as the importer is responsible for products sold in Australia.

If you're a Doctor Keep on keeping on hey...
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 12:29

I have developed a new electric motor - really quite advanced for its time.
At the moment I am only selling these as a new complete ready to ride Electric bike.
The specs are top speed 380kph and weights 40% less than you typical Hayabusa with a 10 year warranty.
RRP will be $1,100 ride away.

Let me know if you are interested.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 16:00

I just came across this excellent Guide to Deconstructing the Battery Hype Cycle.

Supercaps wrote:
Sun, 11 Mar 2018, 05:35
Not sure how to post an image in this forum.

Yes, it's not obvious. You can just drag and drop an image file into the editor pane. Or you can add it as an attachment, using controls that are below the (full) post-editing pane, then choose to inline it. There's a description of the process about half way through this post.

I can supply voltage curves etc too. Maybe a way to take away your reservations is to discharge the unit to 0V then recharge it to 54V. Would that help? I’ll make a video and post it. 🙂
Yes. Thank you. That would be good. I look forward to it.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by whysomean » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 09:21

What if....just what if he is actually selling what has been advertised?
Correct me if I'm wrong but the forum rules do state that you must not post any material which is inaccurate.

I just hope that *when* its proven real, that people are as quick to apologise as they were to criticise.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by jonescg » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 09:40

I don't think the forum rules are that specific, however we are a fairly learned bunch here. And collectively we know a fair bit about energy storage. There are some aspects to this product which simply don't add up - the Kilowattlabs images of 2.7 volt, 3000 F capacitors implies that these are used in the product, yet we know even a few hundred of them wouldn't store a tenth of the energy claimed.

We all want to see high cycle life storage solutions for EVs and renewable energy, but when things don't quite add up, we're understandably sceptical.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 13:06

What if...

What if it is real then I would buy them and strip out the caps and sell them 15x what I bought them for and still undercut the market.
So 20 units would make me a millionaire.

Even those old words about if it's too good to be true...
Sorry if you cant see the problem with this product then as much as I hate to say it just "trust us".
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by jonescg » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 14:12

By the way @whysomean, setting up a username just to chime in anonymously from the sidelines is frowned upon. It's called troll posting in some circles. However I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and look forward to your constructive input.

And Richo, try not to be too cynical :P
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Johny » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 14:17

I just hope that *when* its real, that people are as quick to apologise as they were to criticise.
"When" we find out its real I will eat each hat in my closet ....
I live near the folk selling these things. Wonder if I should pay a visit?

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Thu, 15 Mar 2018, 12:45

I want it to be real because I want to be a millionaire :lol:
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