Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Wed, 28 Mar 2018, 07:55

Here are two things readers need to understand about scientific papers describing advances in supercapacitors (and I've read many since this thread began):

1. The watt-hours per kilogram (Wk/kg) figures they give are based on the weight of the active material on the plates. But this only makes up about 15% of the weight of even the most streamlined pouch cell. So you need to divide such figures by a factor of about 7 before you compare them to the typical watt-hours per kilogram of whole lithium battery cells (100 to 265 Wh/kg). So when a lab announces a supercap with 100 Wh/kg you can translate that to about 14 Wh/kg in terms of whole cells.

About 85% of the weight of a supercap is in the copper and aluminium current-collectors, the plate separators, the electrolyte, the terminals and the case. But when scientists are trying to figure out the best active materials, it makes sense to leave out the weight of all that stuff because it is so variable.

2. These results are for one small cell in a lab where, for example, they might be happy to pay $100 for a few tens of grams of carbon nanotubes. Translating this to a commercial product usually takes about 10 years, if it happens at all.

For example, the LCO cell was first demonstrated in a lab in 1979. The first commercial LCO cell wasn't produced until 1991 (by Sony). And 9 times out of 10 these things never make it out of the lab due to things like the cost of the raw materials or difficulties with large-scale production.
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Post by weber » Wed, 28 Mar 2018, 08:32

BTW, Paul. At this point in this video you claim that your supercapacitors are solid-state, that they have a dry electrolyte, that the graphene is the electrolyte. So how do you explain the flammable vapour the cell is seen venting in your blowtorch video. Venting flammable vapour is exactly what one would expect from an LTO cell.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Rusdy » Wed, 28 Mar 2018, 09:30

Golly gosh, I thought this scam is thoroughly gone by now (since it's obvious). I guess I don't want to miss the excitement (FOMO) too!

Hi @Supercaps, I genuinely applaud your coolness in answering these critics. However, do see it as a genuine care from us to you, not being scammed by kilowatt labs energy storage products (by using the claimed Sirius super battery). We're all here just trying to get straight answer of the spec and find wanting.

I do admit that it's quite amazing that there has been no genuine attempt to prove this scam so far in the web (this might be a genuine breakthrough!!!! :shock:). The best I can find is this one (is macrop one of the user here?). Anyway, one of the poster there gave the link to Maxwell equivalent product (looks identical). But we all know Maxwell product is indeed not a scam. The datasheet genuinely said 83Farad with just a tad under 4Wh/kg. That's what we want to see from the Sirius 'battery' as well.

Me trying to see the good of people here: maybe, just maybe, kilowatt labs CEO Omer Ghani also a victim of Sirius battery scam? If it is a genuine supercap with claimed 100Wh/kg, you'll already see it in the news and that person would probably win noble prize by now, don't you think?

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Wed, 28 Mar 2018, 11:05

C'mon @Supercaps. Let's get this over with. I'm sure we've both got better things to do. Show us the voltage time curve for a single cell, charging from a rested* 1.5 volts, up to 2.8 volts, at a constant 1.3 amps. All that's required is a lab power supply with variable current limit, a multimeter, a clock and a spreadsheet. You probably have more sophisticated data logging.

You've repeatedly claimed it would be linear in voltage all the way up from 0 V to 2.7 V. The only reason I don't suggest you start from a rested voltage of zero is that I know that even some supercapacitors will be damaged by voltages below 1.5 V.

And by all means, stop at 2.7 V if you want. But seeing the linearity continue (or not) up to 2.8 V would be the icing on the cake. And why I'm worrying about damage, when you've just blowtorched one, I'm not sure. :)

* I'm not sure what you thought you were demonstrating in that earlier video with the whole 48 volt module, the power supply and the jumper lead, but it sure wasn't anything that made any sense to me. The fact that the voltage sprang instantly from 0 to 56 volts when you removed the short circuit, says nothing about whether it is a capacitor or a battery. It suggests there is a switching device inside the module that opens to protect the cells from a short-circuit.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Wed, 28 Mar 2018, 12:51

Hi all,
Have been running tests on and off through the day to answer the great questions raised. I should be able to post a video shortly.
And yes I didn’t describe the way the electrolyte acts in the super caps properly. I made a mistake. I should have explained that the electrolyte is absorbed into the graphene so that it’s dry, not that the graphene acted as the electrolyte. Sorry for the mistake.

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Post by jonescg » Wed, 28 Mar 2018, 13:00

Supercaps wrote:
Wed, 28 Mar 2018, 12:51
I should have explained that the electrolyte is absorbed into the graphene so that it’s dry, not that the graphene acted as the electrolyte.
When I was sending cryogenically frozen samples around the world, we used a 'dryshipper'. It was basically a sponge which absorbed all the liquid nitrogen in the dewar and allowed it to be transported by air. It was always a gong show at the airport because liquid nitrogen is a big no-no on aeroplanes, but the principle was the same. If it's absorbed by the material like a sponge, it's still there and technically it's still in the liquid state, it just took much longer to leak out. Didn't stop us from trying to fill it right up to the neck so we could flash-freeze samples in the field... :mrgreen:
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Post by weber » Wed, 28 Mar 2018, 13:25

Paul, I have to admit I was surprised that your venting cell was self-extinguishing, just as you claimed.

Unfortunately, I then realised I don't know whether or not an aluminium-can LTO cell would do the same under the same conditions. But I could have been a bit more gracious about that. Sorry.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by jonescg » Wed, 28 Mar 2018, 13:35

LiFePO4 electrolyte is somewhat self extinguishing too. Far safer in a fire event than LiCo or LiMn.
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Post by jonescg » Wed, 28 Mar 2018, 14:13

As for aluminium cans, they are thin walled and would deform/rupture at a much lower internal pressure than an 18650 format Li-ion cell. So they don't get a chance to become spectacular.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by nuggetgalore » Thu, 29 Mar 2018, 04:56

I went to the presentation last night.
It was more about ARVIO's business of manufacturing /supplying storage systems than the supercaps.
I think their products are top notch, irrespective of the battery .
www.arvio.com.au
The question if the Kiolwatt lab SIRIUS Capacitor Module stores the energy in capacitors or not has not been answered in my book.
Funny that Paul claimed the area of the graphene in acres rather than square meters (5 acres per cell, about 2 hectares or 20k m2 ).
That is a lot of paddock, if true the manufacturing process must be very cheap even allowing they are made in China.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Thu, 29 Mar 2018, 07:35

The way forward?

SiriusTitanateModule.png
SiriusTitanateModule.png (50.8 KiB) Viewed 1590 times

i.e. Get some white-on-red stickers made with the word "TITANATE" (to stick over the word "CAPACITOR").

Lithium Titanate cells have many advantages over other lithium-ion cells. Those advantages just don't happen to include one million cycles to 100% DOD, a 45 year calendar life, operation at 85 °C, charging in 30 seconds or zero toxicity.

And by the way, if we do eventually get graphene supercapacitors with energy density like this, no one expects them to have any of those properties, except charging in 30 seconds.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by digsys » Thu, 29 Mar 2018, 08:17

nuggetgalore wrote: I went to the presentation last night.
It was more about ARVIO's business of manufacturing /supplying storage systems than the supercaps.
I think their products are top notch, irrespective of the battery .
I wanted to go, but had an ATA meeting at the same time. Guess we'll have to wait and see if these are really miracle caps :-)
Reminds me of a presentation we had a couple weeks ago on Sodium Nickel Chloride storage packs from GridEdge company.
Great product range, for high energy, wide temp range installations. Possibly even a better "fit" than Teslas super-battery in South Aus,
but woefully expensive, heavy, INflexible for vehicles (car size) or "standard" home solar setups.
Hopefully a breakthrough one day ..

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by nuggetgalore » Thu, 29 Mar 2018, 09:19

weber wrote:
Thu, 29 Mar 2018, 07:35
The way forward?


SiriusTitanateModule.png


i.e. Get some white-on-red stickers made with the word "TITANATE".

Lithium Titanate cells have many advantages over other lithium-ion cells. Those advantages just don't happen to include one million cycles to 100% DOD, a 45 year calendar life, operation at 85 °C, charging in 30 seconds or zero toxicity.
just a few more thoughts on last nights presentation.
A lot of questions asked by the public were about their own electricity/storage etc problems , rather than specific questions regarding the system or the battery.
One of the few questions asked about the battery : what happens if a cell fails, does it affect the whole unit? Paul's answer was no, it only affects the faulty cell. I suppose that could be possible, depending how the 1200 cells are bundled. I don't know.
Claims to charge AA batteries in next to no time I can accept, but multy KWh in a few minutes just does not seem plausible (copper wires the size of an elephant trunk?)
Another battery question asked was the loss of energy in standby. The way I understood it is fairly short lived (a few days only , something with improvements in the future ) but a small current from a (lithium??) battery stops the capacitors from draining.
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Post by nuggetgalore » Thu, 29 Mar 2018, 09:40

I wanted to go, but had an ATA meeting at the same time. Guess we'll have to wait and see if these are really miracle caps :-)
Reminds me of a presentation we had a couple weeks ago on Sodium Nickel Chloride storage packs from GridEdge company.
Great product range, for high energy, wide temp range installations. Possibly even a better "fit" than Teslas super-battery in South Aus,
but woefully expensive, heavy, INflexible for vehicles (car size) or "standard" home solar setups.
Hopefully a breakthrough one day ..
I nearly was going to compare the Na Ni battery with this supercap thing but was in two minds.
But since you brought it up, I will.
The sodium nickel high temperature batteries are not new and no doubt have their uses in specialised applications.
I am Swiss and have great faith (I am also a fool,lol) in the quality of the product and the customer service of the Swiss manufacturer.
But I asked GridEdge several questions per email, so far the silence is deafening. 100 watt to run them on standby and 14 hours to heat them up before they are usable?
In contrast the supercap is very new, exorbitant claims and what is a ten year guarantee with unlimited cycles worth if the manufacturer has disappeared?
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Thu, 29 Mar 2018, 15:23

https://youtu.be/m_hyyQ5-d0E
Super capacitor charge test

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Post by digsys » Thu, 29 Mar 2018, 17:09

nuggetgalore wrote: ...
But I asked GridEdge several questions per email, so far the silence is deafening. 100 watt to run them on standby and 14 hours to heat them up before they are usable? .. In contrast the supercap is very new, exorbitant claims ....
Yes. Having seen the unit, plus it's build quality (excellent), I am in no doubt that for high energy installations, it IS probably the best suited
technology out there .. especially from an environmental point of view. BUT, then to claim - it is perfect (price and performance) for EVs, homes,
planes, bicycles, toasters, mobile phones etc etc ... someone just got carried away. And in a similar way, wouldn't answer relevant tech questions,
or allow an unrestricted view inside. And you're right, Sodium N Chloride batteries have been around for a while, and are awesome (for what they
were designed for). In the super-cap case, we don't have any accessible past history installs we can check. Time is on our side :-)

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by whysomean » Thu, 29 Mar 2018, 18:16

@supercaps did you get reincarnated after the li-ion cell blew you to supercap heaven?

That was some crazy shit. Definitely do not try this at home.

Great last video too.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by 4Springs » Sat, 31 Mar 2018, 08:23

Supercaps wrote:
Thu, 29 Mar 2018, 15:23
https://youtu.be/m_hyyQ5-d0E
Super capacitor charge test
Nobody has commented on the contents of this video yet!
I'm waiting with bated breath!

I've charged a lithium battery or two in my time, but never a supercapacitor. The results look like what I'd expect with a battery - what would the difference be with a capacitor?

By the way Supercaps I'm super impressed by the way you have put yourself out there with these comments and videos. You haven't received the warmest of welcomes but you have handled it very calmly and professionally.

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Post by weber » Sat, 31 Mar 2018, 09:35

4Springs wrote:
Sat, 31 Mar 2018, 08:23
Supercaps wrote:
Thu, 29 Mar 2018, 15:23
https://youtu.be/m_hyyQ5-d0E
Super capacitor charge test
Nobody has commented on the contents of this video yet!
I'm waiting with bated breath!
Yeah. I'm waiting for someone else to explain what that video tells us. I figure it's a waste of time me saying anything, since Paul, and half the planet, seems to think I'm just out to get him. Whereas in fact, I'm trying to save him from the ACCC and possibly the courts.

He has sure made it difficult for us, by doing a constant-voltage charge instead of the simple and obvious 1C constant-current charge that everyone else does, and by making it nearly impossible to read the one meter that matters. But the required information is all there.

You just have to:
(a) take into account that there's an equivalent series resistance in the tens of milliohms, otherwise the power supply would have been in current-limit at 90 amps the whole time, and the cell or capacitor would have charged in a minute or two, instead of 15 minutes, and
(b) use the single-frame-step feature of YouTube: Your full-stop key takes you one frame forward, your comma key takes you one frame back.
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Post by weber » Sat, 31 Mar 2018, 10:07

4Springs wrote:
Sat, 31 Mar 2018, 08:23
I've charged a lithium battery or two in my time, but never a supercapacitor. The results look like what I'd expect with a battery - what would the difference be with a capacitor?
Can someone who knows about capacitors please show us what the current vs time curve should look like if this is a 3000 F capacitor. The ESR has to be 30 milliohms or more since we don't see the power supply in current-limit for more than one sample of the ammeter, and 2.7 V/90 A = 30 mΩ.
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Post by jonescg » Sat, 31 Mar 2018, 10:42

Yes I watched it last night and had a think. I have seen LiFePO4 cells go from under 1 volt to 3.4 volts under a constant voltage, current-limited charge regime. So what I saw in this video still doesn't suggest it's anything but an LTO cell. Mind you, if it was an LTO cell, I wouldn't use it again after taking it that low.

And yes, like Dave, I'm keen to see that you are able to sell this energy storage product without recourse from the ACCC, even if it doesn't have all the features promised (10,000 cycles seems to me to be plenty - why not under promise and over deliver?).
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Post by coulomb » Sat, 31 Mar 2018, 21:41

weber wrote:
Sat, 31 Mar 2018, 10:07
Can someone who knows about capacitors please show us what the current vs time curve should look like if this is a 3000 F capacitor. The ESR has to be 30 milliohms or more...
This has been discussed on Whirlpool. User Dark Flow did some calculations:

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/ ... #r56105214

He comes up with 55 mΩ, but he noted that the step drop in current can only happen to a 3000F capacitor if the initial current was some 228 A, and this is clearly not the case.

It seems to me that the only way the current can step down so fast like that is if there is a voltage source to buck the power supply. Like a battery. Perhaps an LTO cell. As Chris Jones has noted, a recently shorted cell could behave like that.

I think it should have been possible to arrange the clamp meter so that we could read the values without single framing. Just a suggestion.

[ Edit: added "to a 3000 F capacitor"; minor corrections. ]
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Post by Supercaps » Sun, 01 Apr 2018, 06:46

Super capacitor discharge test.
Thanks for your comments on the previous report. Here is another video which is a lot clearer.
https://youtu.be/aQD8hk2llN0

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Post by coulomb » Sun, 01 Apr 2018, 07:03

Thanks, Supercaps. That's a wonderful, clear demonstration of a battery.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Supercaps » Sun, 01 Apr 2018, 09:41

And here is a constant current charge of the super capacitor

https://youtu.be/7qSNG7nUQbQ

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