Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by TCryptos » Mon, 30 Apr 2018, 09:26

Yeh cause having a range up to 85deg and running at 85deg for prolonged lengths is equivalent. :lol:
That's right - it absolutely is supposed to be, for this kind of (supposed) component, as comprehensively explained above.
Since what we are discussing is really a just lithium battery though, not so much.

Still waiting for some comment on the re-labelled USB "graphene supercapacitors" ... ...

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Mon, 30 Apr 2018, 10:00

Here's a supercapacitor with the shortest life I can find, at its max operating temperature.
https://au.mouser.com/pdfdocs/TaiyoYude ... citors.pdf
In the middle of page 3 it says it will go for 96 hours at 85 °C with at most a 30% reduction in capacitance and a doubling of internal resistance.
So I'll settle for those criteria. 4 days.

Edit: Actually I didn't read carefully enough. That was 96 hours at 85 °C followed by 96 hours at -25 °C (item 7). In item 5 it says it can do 1000 hours (6 weeks) at 85 °C.

But what the heck. 4 days at 85 °C should be long enough to do some serious damage to an LTO cell. Maybe we don't even have to wait that long. As a sanity check, you could start by measuring the capacity and internal resistance of that one that went up to 74 °C briefly during the most recent fast charge attempt.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Tue, 01 May 2018, 12:40

weber wrote:
Tue, 24 Apr 2018, 13:58
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/developi ... ting-jobs/
I note that the government's decision to award the grant to the Arvio-led consortium probably wasn't influenced in any way by any supercapacitor claims. In support of that, this related article shows an Arvio system using what looks like lead-acid batteries.
http://www.enhar.com.au/news/enhar-assi ... t-funding/
Hang-on there.
Vic govt wrote: This project will manufacture a solar storage control system and software technology kit in Victoria, rather than using imported equipment and create 20 full-time jobs.
So if Arvio are importing killowatt stuff I don't see how this qualifies.
Have they employed an extra 20 people or has that been fudged too!
Vic govt wrote:The $6.17 million pilot project will see 200 solar storage energy kits installed in residences
So Vic govt are spending $31k per install.
It would have been cheaper to install the standard $12k powerwall and give $18k to 200 homeless people.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by whysomean » Thu, 03 May 2018, 07:16

At least this wouldn't happen with the supercaps!

https://www.lloydsloadinglist.com/freig ... uo8D4iFPAQ

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by fonzee » Thu, 03 May 2018, 07:28

hey @Richo, you should seriously check your facts before making false claims about other business'.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by reecho » Thu, 03 May 2018, 08:12

Another troll account. this is getting tiring. Not a good look when faceless people try to defend the indefensible. the product has been debunked. Time to move on...

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by TCryptos » Thu, 03 May 2018, 08:20

At least this wouldn't happen with the supercaps!
We haven't seen any flammability testing with any supercapacitors (as we've established here, the Kilowatt Labs product contains LTO lithium batteries, not supercapacitors), but Paul did post a video to youtube showing the ruptured LTO cell electrolyte burning fiercely as long as an external flame source was present. In which case, it certainly could happen, given a situation in which an existing fire was providing a continuous ignition source to the highly flammable electrolyte.

If these lithium based LTO cells were being transported by air freight, I shudder to think would would happen if a fire occurred onboard, providing an ignition source.
check your facts before making false claims about ...
All parties have an obligation to do this. A business making false claims about a product that it is selling is legally not in a good situation here in Oz.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Johny » Thu, 03 May 2018, 09:09

fonzee wrote:
Thu, 03 May 2018, 07:28
hey @Richo, you should seriously check your facts before making false claims about other business'.
Yeah Richo. fonzee has only posted this once so he hasn't seen how devilishly cunning you can be with facts.😜

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Johny » Thu, 03 May 2018, 09:11

whysomean wrote:
Thu, 03 May 2018, 07:16
At least this wouldn't happen with the supercaps!

https://www.lloydsloadinglist.com/freig ... uo8D4iFPAQ
I think I prefer your new fonzee handle/alias.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Thu, 03 May 2018, 09:22

fonzee wrote:
Thu, 03 May 2018, 07:28
hey @Richo, you should seriously check your facts before making false claims about other business'.
Fonzee, please quote what you think Richo wrote that might be a false claim about a business. I don't see anything even remotely like that.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Thu, 03 May 2018, 13:25

Well the way I see it is I only regurgitated what was in the media release.
Copy -> Paste
But I did look at it again just in case.

Another interesting fact...
vic govt wrote:A consortium of five companies, led by innovation company ARVIO, will receive funding...Solar Station Alpha, Selectronic Australia, Imark Communication and Diamond Energy are the other four companies involved in this project
So an imported battery module, imported panels, an electrician and a few actual locally made products from Imark and Selectronic.
Everything you need as a pilot project for renweable energy+batteries.

Supposedly the work was due to start in September.
So how many Killawog modules are out there already?
So there proof already that unemployed people are now employed as a result?

Also now I'm curious about Arvio, in an "innovation" company, after looking at the website it isn't clear which products Arvio "innovated".
You don't get "innovation" awards for importing stuff from another company.
Please help me which ones were innovated?
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Thu, 03 May 2018, 13:34

If there are 2 teams of 5 people for installations that's 10 of the 20 people hired.
Add a project manager, couple of middle management, 2-3 sales for expo's etc and your nearly there.
Probably the rest is the slaves across the 5 companies doing the actual work building stuff gets you 20.
Plausible I guess.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Adverse Effects » Fri, 04 May 2018, 17:56

fonzee wrote:
Thu, 03 May 2018, 07:28
hey @Richo, you should seriously check your facts before making false claims about other business'.
OMG yet another shill account

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Mon, 07 May 2018, 12:28

I was reading an article today that the US DoE aims to have grid battery storage in 20kWh units, 20kW continuous (1C), 5,000 recharge cycles, 10+ year life for USD$2,000.
So 6 x Arvrio units for under $3,000...
I don't think anybody would care what was in them at that price 8-)
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by TCryptos » Thu, 10 May 2018, 04:39

Speaking of potential competition for the Kilowatt Labs unit:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... -of-200000

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Fri, 11 May 2018, 12:24

Wow that's amayzing :lol:

Just imagine if the two got together. :idea:
Magical copper plates with magical caps.
That would be just magical :P
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Post by Johny » Fri, 11 May 2018, 12:32

Haha - previously they really were selling snake oil:

"Already on bail accused of selling snakes with “medicinal qualities” for more than $25,000 each, the pair told potential victims they were developing a device that could be used to generate “electricity from thunderbolts”.

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by reecho » Sat, 12 May 2018, 20:17


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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by 4Springs » Sun, 13 May 2018, 06:03

reecho wrote:
Sat, 12 May 2018, 20:17
Oh dear...

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/brisban ... 1178196224
Very professional-looking organisation there. I'd be interested in their Lithium Iron batteries but there doesn't seem to be any info!
http://polygreensolar.com.au/product-ca ... batteries/

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Adverse Effects » Sun, 13 May 2018, 08:33

4Springs wrote:
Sun, 13 May 2018, 06:03
reecho wrote:
Sat, 12 May 2018, 20:17
Oh dear...

https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/brisban ... 1178196224
Very professional-looking organisation there. I'd be interested in their Lithium Iron batteries but there doesn't seem to be any info!
http://polygreensolar.com.au/product-ca ... batteries/
another of there sites is
POLYCORE COMPOSITES PTY LTD
https://polycorecomposites.com

and there "business" address looks like a junk yard

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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Nictron » Sun, 13 May 2018, 23:49

Hi All,

I’ve been following this thread with interest. I am also looking to procure this Sirius product for our off grid implementation.

I’ve attached some information relating the product’s ISO certifications.

Would be keen to get some insight and opinions as there seems to be quite a few knowledgeable people here.

Much appreciated from South Africa.
Attachments
GFA - Reference List.pdf
(587.09 KiB) Downloaded 30 times
ISO14001.pdf
(75.27 KiB) Downloaded 20 times
ISO9001.pdf
(77.55 KiB) Downloaded 21 times
894_PressRelease_EDLC_ISO_Certificate_Eng.pdf
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Mon, 14 May 2018, 05:54

Nictron wrote:
Sun, 13 May 2018, 23:49
Hi All,

I’ve been following this thread with interest. I am also looking to procure this Sirius product for our off grid implementation.

I’ve attached some information relating the product’s ISO certifications.

Would be keen to get some insight and opinions as there seems to be quite a few knowledgeable people here.

Much appreciated from South Africa.
Hi Nictron. Thanks for letting us know about this.

The first thing to realise is that ISO 9001 and ISO 14001 certificates do not apply to a product, but to a company, in this case Samxon. They certify that the company follows standard quality-control and environmental-management procedures.

The second thing to note is that while this company does produce supercapacitors, their smallest 3000 farad supercapacitors (as the Sirius devices are often claimed to be) are 60 mm in diameter and 138 mm in length, as you can see on page 22 (PDF page 24) of the Samxon supercapacitor catalog. The devices inside the Sirius modules are only 18 mm in diameter and 65 mm long, the same as a 1.3 amp-hour lithium titanate battery cell. The Samxon 3000 F supercaps are 23 times the volume of the Sirius devices.

Also the Samxon 3000 F supercaps have an ESR of 0.5 millohms and a rated voltage of 2.5 V, where the Sirius devices have been shown to have a ESR of 30 to 50 milliohms and are routinely charged to 2.7 V (just like a 1.3 Ah lithium titanate battery cell) and have the same voltage/time/current relationship as a lithium titanate battery cell.

And of course lithium titanate batteries do not have anywhere near the lifetime of 1 million cycles or 45 years that is falsely claimed for the Sirius modules, nor will they operate at 85 °C as falsely claimed for the Sirius modules. Lithium titanate batteries [Edit: at least those from reputable manufacturers willing to put their name on their devices] are more like 10,000 cycles, 10 years, 50 °C, but not simultaneously.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by rhills » Mon, 14 May 2018, 08:32

weber wrote:
Mon, 14 May 2018, 05:54
...Lithium titanate batteries are more like 10,000 cycles, 10 years, 50 °C, but not simultaneously.
Methinks a variant of the old adage of "Good, Fast, Cheap, pick any two" applies here :)
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Mon, 14 May 2018, 10:47

If we're talking about cycle life, calendar life and temperature, for lithium titanate batteries, then it's worse than that. You only get to pick one.

It's something like:
If you keep them at 25 °C and don't cycle them (or cycle them infrequently between 20% and 80% SoC) then you get 10 years.
If you keep them at 25 °C then you get 10,000 cycles, provided you do it in within about 2 years.
If you keep them at 50 °C then you'll only have about 1/6th of the cycle life or calendar life you would have got at 25 °C.
[Edit: I remind you that this is for LTOs from reputable manufacturers willing to put their name on their devices, and willing to admit they are LTOs.]
The reduction of lifetime with temperature is based on Arrhenius' law which applies equally to capacitors and batteries. It says that life approximately halves for every increase of 10 °C.

If instead we compare the properties of supercaps and batteries (of various chemistries), something like your diagram applies to the properties: long-lived, energy dense, power dense. Cost is remarkably weakly correlated with any of those properties, given enough time and mass production. In the limit, the cost tends to depend on the abundance of the raw materials used, and the energy required to extract them and combine them.

Lithium ion batteries have high energy density, moderate life and moderate power density. Traditional (EDLC) supercaps have high power density and long cycle life, but low energy density.

There's a fundamental physical reason, in fact a simple geometrical reason, why supercaps are unlikely to ever have energy density (energy per volume) approaching that of batteries. That's because capacitors can only use the surface of the material, where batteries can use the entire volume.

Using the common analogy where water represents electrical charge, consider a stack of sheets of paper versus an equal-volume stack of sheets of plastic. The plastic sheets are of a kind whose surface is wettable (capacitor analog), but the paper allows the water to penetrate its entire volume (battery analog). The stacked plastic sheets, like the stacked layers of graphite, are useless as they stand. You need to separate the layers in order for them to hold any water at all. But it's worse than that. You need to prevent them from re-stacking when the water is drained. So you need to randomly crumple every plastic sheet to prevent them from re-stacking. As you can imagine, the stack of crumpled plastic sheets (graphene analog) takes up far more volume than the stack of flat sheets of paper, and still doesn't hold as much water.

We can trade off power density for energy density by making a hybrid between a capacitor and a battery, by mixing their cathode materials, but the battery-like cathode material still has much the same lifetime it had when it was in a pure battery.

The thing is, lithium ion batteries already have more than enough power density and lifetime for electric vehicles, and even more so for home energy storage systems. We don't need the power density or cycle life of supercapacitors for these applications. We just need lithium ion batteries to get cheaper, as they are doing. And we need to research batteries that use only the most abundant elements, as we are doing.

I note that "end of life" is defined as when the energy storage capacity falls to 80% of the rated capacity, or the internal resistance doubles. In future, a battery that has had a full life in an electric vehicle may have a second life in a household energy system.
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Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by TCryptos » Mon, 14 May 2018, 12:47

Thanks @weber, for those informative posts.

Thanks also @Nictron for your posted documentation, which further demonstrates that the Kilowatt Labs product cannot contain 3000F supercapacitors, which are huge compared to the LTO lithium batteries that it does contain. I'm sure that you will be pleased with your contribution to the discussion.

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