Lithium Sulfur Batteries

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Post by coulomb » Sat, 15 Jan 2011, 00:16

T1 Terry wrote: What does the LYP stand for?

I'm guessing Lithium iron Yttrium Phosphate. So LiFeYPO4. The Yttrium gives the cells better performance in the cold, and there has been a suggestion that it also reduces the internal resistance.

Edit: forgot the iron!
Last edited by coulomb on Fri, 14 Jan 2011, 13:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by T1 Terry » Sat, 15 Jan 2011, 03:20

Thanks for that, just spent an enthralling hr reading about Yttrium, I think I need a life Image

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Post by bga » Sun, 16 Jan 2011, 19:06

Found some more info in Li-S batteries Here

Quote:
Sion Power ARPA-E Project Targeting Li-S Battery With 600 Wh/kg and 1,000 Cycles by 2016
1 May 2010
Sion Power Corporation has received a three-year research grant worth up to $5 million from the United States Department of Energy Advanced Research Projects Agency - Energy (ARPA-E) (earlier post) for the development of practical, economical and safe lithium-sulfur (Li-S) batteries for powering electric vehicles. Sion’s award was one of 10 made to advanced battery projects by ARPA-E during this second round of project funding.

Performance targets for this program are to exceed 500 Wh/kg and 500 cycles at commercially viable recharge rates. By 2016, the goal is to produce a cell with 600 Wh/kg and 1,000 cycles. Sion Power believes that by utilizing Li-S technology, a battery pack weighing less than 700 lbs (318 kg) can power a 3,500 lb (1,588 kg) five-passenger vehicle more than 300 miles (483 km).
/Quote

That battery sounds a bit big for only 500km range ...
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Post by Richo » Mon, 17 Jan 2011, 20:46

Whoa 330Wh/km.
They must be talking about an SUV Image
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Post by ckas » Thu, 10 Feb 2011, 20:48

@ Terry
LYP = Lithium Yttrium Phosphate
You will also see LFeYP = Lithium Iron Yttrium Phosphate.

Apparently the Yttrium stabilises the molecules of LFP.


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Post by bga » Mon, 28 Feb 2011, 18:11

Woohoo - Winston is now listing performance curves on the LSP batteries

here

2.2V discharge
About 500 cycles to 80%
Self discharge about 30% per year

The cycle life is the weak point, but this is phenomenally good compared to my expectations of the state of the art.
Last edited by bga on Mon, 28 Feb 2011, 07:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by T1 Terry » Mon, 28 Feb 2011, 20:55

According to Jack Rickard TS have told him they would have batteries available to him mid next year for his latest monster project. Still not sure how much strength to place on any of that but time will tell.
Were they lithium sulphur the power cells that were used in the Mars explorer?

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Post by antiscab » Tue, 01 Mar 2011, 00:31

30% self discharge is a worry, I wonder how uniform it is.
it works out to ~0.5Ah/day for a 600Ah cell, so balancing will still be practical
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Post by bga » Tue, 01 Mar 2011, 01:15

Damn, I lost that edit as well.
Self discharge isn't so bad when expressed as 2.5% per month - cosiderably better than PbSO4.

0.5AH per day puts some colour on the actual losses. So a 500V bus pack (300KWH) will have losses that amount to about 250 WH per day, or 10 watts. - 0.1% of the operating energy.

One thing that I have read about Li-S chemistry is that it can (does?) have parasitic discharge paths (??) when overcharged, so the battery should be self-balancing without need of the complexity we have on LiFePo and the like.

The TS-LFP cells ave a self-discharge of about 3% per month, or 1 watt. In a typical current EV battery, this means a loss in the 0.1% region.
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Post by antiscab » Tue, 01 Mar 2011, 04:15

I think the LFP cells self discharge rate is far lower than 3%/month.

I had 15 x 40Ah cells in storage for 9 months.
Before putting them in storage I had charged them all to ~3.6v

after 9 months every cell was still at ~3.6v

Matt
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Post by Mesuge » Sun, 06 Mar 2011, 10:46

Richo wrote: Whoa 330Wh/km.
They must be talking about an SUV Image


Well, as always it's gonna be worse than that Image

Apparently as we have seen from the latest real life tests for Volt/Leaf - for the americans "small car" is almost in the ~300Wh/mi area and smallish euro/asian sized SUV pretender could be closer to ~500Wh/mi, and those truly all-american AWD SUVs ala "Canyonero" therefore heading north of these numbers. I'm talking real conditions: highway speeds, hills, stop&go traffic, head/cross-wind, snow/rain, deteoriating road surface, lights, stereo blasting, onboard heating, climate control, keeping good %DOD, ..) Image

Image
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Post by coulomb » Mon, 07 Mar 2011, 04:04

Mesuge: love the Canyonero image! Image

Translation of this DIYElectriccar post):

http://translate.google.com.au/translat ... =&ie=UTF-8

Headline:
€ 839.00 inc VAT, plus shipping.

(Qty 1; drops to €799 in quantity 51+).

But also:
! Nur auf Bestellung !!   (! To order only!)

Then again, it also says "available now" and "delivery time: 6-8 weeks".
Last edited by coulomb on Sun, 06 Mar 2011, 17:13, edited 1 time in total.
Nissan Leaf 2012 with new battery May 2019.
5650 W solar, 2xPIP-4048MS inverters, 16 kWh battery.
1.4 kW solar with 1.2 kW Latronics inverter and FIT.
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Post by Mesuge » Mon, 07 Mar 2011, 15:04

Thanks, I'm following that thread as well, it seems these are not the next gen planned for Q2/2012 either. I like how they always announce the latest shipment ready for Europe via Hamburg, it's like contraband smuggling network lol.

Btw. the lyrics and "music video" for that particular scene are even better than the still pic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4QgWRycd7I
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Post by pink343 » Fri, 12 Aug 2011, 06:59

I have been discussing this with a few people lately.

Specifically with a regard to finding a means of overcoming the problem of this larger cell size forcing the use of a lower voltage battery pack.
Where current PWM controllers are essentially a variable DC-DC converter, but using the motor coils as both the inductor and the load. The difference between a buck converter and a boost converter on any basic DC-DC converter schematic is essentially the position of the switch / controller relative to the inductor / motor coils.

Is it possible to use a standard or slightly modified open source controller and trick it into producing voltages higher than the battery pack voltage?

Image

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Post by bga » Mon, 15 Aug 2011, 03:20

Whatever that b***y IE back page button is, I have got to disable it.

Take 2.

Hi Pink,

I agree that 600 AH is way to big for car rproject - it would make a whopping 72V battery - how about a golf cart with a 300km range?

It's not so silly in a bus, though : 500V x 600AH is about 300kwh, good for all day in a 70 seat Beijing bus.

The reason that Winston is making such huge cells is because they're building these bus batteries, I suspect. They have a good history of making practical size cells, I expect we only have to wait.

I was looking at the TS LSP spec sheet and noticed that the discharge graphs are inconsistent with the quoted cycle life, in fact they look a lot like the performance quoted by http://www.sionpower.com/index.html, which is about 300 cycles. Still impressive, none the less. So, maybe not quite ready for us yet.

edited : less is more
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Post by bga » Mon, 12 Sep 2011, 06:28

Re-built website and new data sheets on-line at Winston-Thundersky
(see winston-battery.com)

The newest data sheet for the WB-LSP600AHA cell has been changed significantly, as follows:

Old data sheet
Weight : 5.3kg
Capacity : 600AH
Voltage under discharge:
    Vcell =~ 2.3 - 0.05C    (0.1C = 2.3V, 5C = 2.05V)
This implies specific energy of 249 Wh/kg @ 1C
Durability : 500 cycles @ 80%DOD, 400cy @ 90%DOD


New data:
Weight : 5.3kg
Capacity : 600AH
Voltage under discharge:
    Vcell =~ 1.8 - 0.1C   (1C = 1.7V, 5C = 1.3V)
This implies specific energy of 192 Wh/kg @ 1C
Durability : 2000 cycles @ 80%DOD, 1000cy @ 90%DOD

Good and Bad in this report.
At least the data looks real.
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Post by jumpjack » Thu, 11 Jul 2013, 23:18

Where did you got old and new datasheets?

Is there any news after 2 years about capacity and price?
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Post by antiscab » Fri, 12 Jul 2013, 00:20

heres a price:

http://enershop.generplus.it/product_in ... anguage=en

I wonder if anyone has used them yet
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

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Post by T1 Terry » Fri, 12 Jul 2013, 03:30

At around AU$ 1,070 and you need 6 to make a 12v battery I'm thinking they have still got a long way to go. The life cycle has improved, but that still has some way to go as well
I think I got the currency conversion right

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Post by antiscab » Fri, 12 Jul 2013, 14:43

It would make a pretty good caravan house battery :D
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

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Post by T1 Terry » Fri, 12 Jul 2013, 16:38

antiscab wrote: It would make a pretty good caravan house battery :D
i can't see what advantage the lithium sulfur batteries would be except weight. The LYP cells are working out much better and more cost effective. 600Ah @ 12v in LYP 100Ah cell format weighs roughly 80kg (about 200Ah of deep cycle AGM weight) and costs around $3,400, 600Ah of LSP in 600Ah x 6 cell format to give the same 12v weighs roughly 32kg but costs $6,420 roughly. Half the weight but halving the weight of LYP is really required.
I have been messing with this avenue for the LYP cells for over 2 yrs now, I have had a hand in setting up quite few systems for people on the road living in their motorhome or caravan full time and they are over the moon with how well they handle the task compared to the lead acid systems they were stuck with before. As far as useable stored energy the cost is actually cheaper than deep cycle AGM batteries, an added bonus the fact the Peukert factor is virtually zero at the discharge and recharge levels involved and the extended cycle life is a 3 times that of lead acid.
I'm heading towards 1,000 cycles on my house system and there doesn't appear to be any loss of capacity yet, so it's all looking good so far.

When the insurance finally pays up I can get back to my hybrid drive motorhome plan that incorporates the house batteries as drive assist and brake assist using regen braking, that should be an interesting project, maybe an application for the LSF cells, I'll have the room.

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Post by Richo » Thu, 30 Jan 2014, 18:44

A UK based company is getting close to releasing improved LiS batteries soon.
http://www.oxisenergy.com/applications/ ... ic-vehicle

Claiming 400Wh/kg and $250/kWh (production due 2016?)
They currently have 200Wh/kg in 1.7Ah, 3.4Ah and 5.5Ah

They have recently joined up with Proinso to do solar storage systems.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Johny » Thu, 30 Jan 2014, 19:32

...and are not damaged by discharging to 100%. I hope they will be licensed out to someone who will make them availble to the general public.
I couldn't find any mention of calendar or cycle life.

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Post by Richo » Thu, 30 Jan 2014, 20:26

LiS wont be as good as LiFEPO4 for cycles.
Also if they are starting at the solar industry I doubt they will have a good C rating to start with either.
OXIS wrote:Mass production of the cells is handled by licensees, including GP Batteries of Singapore
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Richo » Thu, 30 Jan 2014, 20:51

I was just reading that Sion are still only getting 50 cycles but will magically improve to 1,000 soon Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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