Thundersky battries on there side?

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Mesuge
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Thundersky battries on there side?

Post by Mesuge » Sat, 05 Mar 2011, 15:18

There should be on the market already a new gen "the grey series" of Calb batts (part of "Thundersky" holding) which are specific ev-conversion form factor ready, i.e. upstanding connectors but not those high cases anymore, these are wide and short.

Btw. do you have a blog or dedicated construction page here on the forum for your Benz A class conversion project? That's one of the seemingly most diy friendly donors out there ever, and only few documented conversions so far, well only single case I'm aware of. Image
Last edited by Mesuge on Sat, 05 Mar 2011, 04:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Thundersky battries on there side?

Post by coulomb » Sat, 05 Mar 2011, 17:01

Mesuge wrote: There should be on the market already a new gen "the grey series" of Calb batts
Not all the grey series seem to be wide and short:

Image

From http://www.calibpower.com/index.aspx, the US subsidiary of CALB. I see no grey cell products on en.calb.cn, and while there seems to be a SH40AH cell here at calb.cn, the specs including dimensions seem to be for the existing blue SE40AHA cell.
(part of "Thundersky" holding)
Are you saying that CALB is a subsidiary of Thunder Sky now? Or owned by the same parent company or something? This seems to be a popular urban myth; the SE/CALB and TS/Winston products seem to be fairly different to me, despite their superficial similarities. Is there evidence for this shared ownership? I think that Jack Rickard is claiming that they made in the same factory, but I don't believe that he has evidence to back this up. Though I have to admit I haven't investigated closely. I can believe that manufacture of the plastic cases may be subcontracted out to the same company, but the plastic case isn't the most important part of a cell Image
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Thundersky battries on there side?

Post by Mesuge » Sun, 06 Mar 2011, 00:00

Yep, you linked the picture of the classic form factor, but their homepage has been showing the shorter-wide ones as well for a couple of past months. Plus there was a bit higher res pic gallery from some trade show, which I can't locate now..
Image
edit (here kitty unfortunately the short one not shown): http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_i_c2BM_uBw4/T ... eycell.jpg
However, rumor has it the short-wide form factor should spill over to some traditional "blue" cells in some Ah sizes as well. This all should be Q2/2010 ready.


Sorry to sound confusing there, I just didn't have time yesterday attempting to write the whole saga - Calb being licensed/(semi)-separate entity of TS/Winston, where Calb is focusing on <200Ah cheaper ("legacy chemistry") packs. Not sure remembering details exactly but the story few years ago was, that the strategic planning arm of chinese gov. mandated some changes in their industry. So they had to split up or share the license for patent (since ~2007) among the factories or something along those lines, considering the need for development and higher quality grade manuf. base for their space-airforces/submarines on one hand and the consumer market on the other. Plus the recent bruhaha about export ban/limits on rare-earth elements from China played a role etc.

More importantely though, if you have followed Rickard recently, he supposedly got some insider info directly from the chiefbattman himself, that TS/Winston plans launching ~2-4x ? density sulphur based packs, perhaps Q1-Q2/2012. That would be a "game changer" for some applications, notably: long range <<$10k motorcycles, UL/experimental aircraft w. 20-40-60min powered flight, perhaps even decently sized (<15kWh) addon PHEV packs, since I'm not sure about the discharge rates etc. Obviously long range EV applications benefit too, catapulting V2G into serious consideration etc.

Hopefully this would bring a much higher density over those expensive polymers with comparable/bit improved cycle life (Li-S first gen will be limited <1-1.500cyles), yet dramatically lower price per lifecycle, nominal price per Ah will be obviously a bit higher than standard CALB/Winston Fe chemistries, before they retool the manuf. base.
Last edited by Mesuge on Sat, 05 Mar 2011, 14:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Thundersky battries on there side?

Post by bga » Sun, 06 Mar 2011, 06:16

So far, Calib Power doesn't look to be noteworthy. They look to be more a representative than a manufacturer.

Rickard... That name's familiar. That's right; he has some peculiar ideas about cell balancing in batteries and seems to kill a lot more cells than he should.

Having remembered that, I can get onto the new products from Winston (Thundersky). I emailed Winston a short while ago about their new Lithium-Sulfur cells. (see the thread in this section)

There are some serious electrochemical challenges with Sulfur, making that fact that Winston is in the process of offering a product surprising.

Recently, the data sheet for the 600AH cells has been updated, now showing discharge and cycle life information. They are 1000 cycle to 70% capacity cells. I assume that this is the signal that they have completed a lot of testing and are about ready for market.

Winston indicated that all of the product was committed in the short term. Considering the cell size, I would assume that they are making Beijing buses.

Given the newness of the product, bystanding for a while may be a good idea.

The data sheet properties are promising with about 2.5 times (225 wh/kg) the energy density of the LiFeYPo cells and reasonable lifespan with similar dischage performance and approximately 2.1Volts per cell.
Li-S cells have an SG of approximately 1.0 and may even float, so will be bulky batteries. OK in buses, bad in cars.

The potential for LiS cells is about 600 wh/kg, but this is probably 5+ years away. So far demonstration cells at 400-500 wh/kg have only run a few cycles before things like sulfide issues killed them.
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Thundersky battries on there side?

Post by Mesuge » Sun, 06 Mar 2011, 10:01

Well, the above is not solely based on Rickard. With regard to the "burning score", true he destroyed couple of cells more or less intentionally, while many BMS die-hards burned through couple of vehicles, plus buildings and sea ships, just in couple of recent months lol. And that's a smirk which is not comming from an advocate of Rickard's batt./bms approach..

More importantely, thanks for chipping in your view on the sulphur subject, however, the Li-S which is scheduled for western market in more than a year is definately based on additional carbon nano compound stopping premature degradation (hence the offset/increased price and specs). So that's certainly not that crude stuff they might have been testing in the early days in buses over there. I doubt this is just issue about production run at full capacity for the domestic chinese market at the moment, more likely it's just not ready yet.

I'd say that proper form factor might be even more important than weight issue, as it has been demonstrated the predominant shape of cells is quite contraproductive for the ev-conversion/phev scene. I'm not sure what they were thinking, or perhaps the mil./subs/buses makes their bottom line and there it's ok, space limited diy conversions are just piggybacking on that basic demand.

You are right that, remembering the days of TS in early/mid 2000s, it's certainly advisible not to jump on the Li-S bandwagon the very first day, they become available. However, the chinese manufs made a huge progress in recent years, so very likely 6-12months after the launch this should be a quite safe proposition at least for trying it in some smaller application, e.g. as test bed for larger project.

The latest LiFeYPo chemistry is certainly welcomed evolution and good enough for many applications, but it's sort of a dead end avenue for further development in energy density.
Last edited by Mesuge on Sat, 05 Mar 2011, 23:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Thundersky battries on there side?

Post by roddilkes » Thu, 10 Mar 2011, 03:52

Those grey cells have been on the CALB website for a year. In fact they were meant to be producing them as a more upmarket version but never got around to it.
They just got too busy making the blue ones.
CALB are now making a 70Ah cell to replace the old 60Ah, and also a 210Ah cell in the "wide" form factor. Good for electric buses I suppose.

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Thundersky battries on there side?

Post by Readtkilowatt » Sat, 12 Mar 2011, 21:41

No blog on the Merc at the moment.

May get one going later, sorting out the motor gearbox arrangements at the moment.

Dose not look to likely that the gearbox is that usable in the way I have done in the Celica. Not possible to remove enough internals to make it worth while in terms of reducing the losses and it is rather heavy.

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Thundersky battries on there side?

Post by Mesuge » Sun, 13 Mar 2011, 05:17

Yep, that's the only problem with A class, it's heavy, ~1,5t target as loaded platform, so the tranny must be on purpose somewhat muscular in comparison to ~1t (or sub) econoboxes. Definately more DC based drivetrain conversion project, ~100kW AC system still mucho expensive to get it movin, 25-30kWh as minimum pack size. Benz is upscale market in every respect, incl. conversions.
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Thundersky battries on there side?

Post by PlanB » Sun, 13 Mar 2011, 17:10

I'm not sure this is the best thread for this observation but I've been spreadsheeting different mainstream batteries (my defintion of mainstream is they are for sale to indiviuals) & I can't seem to get past Headway 40146S (16Ah 0.5kg)as the sweetspot for price, weight & volume. I calculate $11k for a 600cell, 300kg 360v/96Ah pack?
I also like the bolt each end for pack assembly,the short term high discharge rate & the round shape for cooling. Just wondering if any of you know of any downsides?

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Thundersky battries on there side?

Post by Readtkilowatt » Sun, 13 Mar 2011, 23:33

The weight of the car is not too bad,

I was meaning the weight of the gearbox, it is very heavy compared to the overall vehicle weight.

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Thundersky battries on there side?

Post by Mesuge » Mon, 14 Mar 2011, 00:21

Even though the situation improved by finally making available assembly blocks to hold cylindricals by other means than fragile contact points, I'd say they are still somewhat less sturdy form factor in comparison to large capacity prismatics. Mind you this is automotive application, you are expecting vibration for the next 150k km.. There are couple of threads on this forum (and others) showing upscale LiFeTech cylindricals housed in big alu heatsink ("HEHC cell"), this should be sturdy and lasting long enough with the silver plated contact, rotating terminal and good heat ventilation, but the pricing from this co. has been always a killer, this is perhaps more suitable for smaller pack ebikes/motorcycles/PHEVs and racing experimentals, than commuter 20-30kWh cars on avg. budget. Also, it's outrageous that A123 is refusing offer their >20Ah pouches to diyers, this is clearly the best EV battery out there, e.g. used in Fisker Karma and was powering the now killed? Chrysler EV programme.

You can at least get their hexagonal cell block assembly system for cheaper cylindricals sourced elsewhere (Headway, ..), if you are for some reason prefering cylindricals over good enough large prismatics of today Calb/TS-Winston/.. :
viewtopic.php?t=2260
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