supercapacitor battery's

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seacrust82
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supercapacitor battery's

Post by seacrust82 »

hi all

just found a suppier for the super capacitor's in aus

http://www.glyn.co.nz/Power_Elec_Maxwell.htm


waiting on prices
s.g.crust
antiscab
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Real Name: Matthew Lacey
Location: Perth, WA

supercapacitor battery's

Post by antiscab »

I would be interested to hear prices.

those caps are useful where you need high power for less than a second.

when the discharge time is extended to around 3 seconds their power density is the same as AGM lead acid and low rate lithium batteries.

energy density is very bad, but thats not really what they are used for.

what application did you have in mind for these caps?

Matt
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells
seacrust82
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supercapacitor battery's

Post by seacrust82 »

The cap's will be for a 150 vdc system
s.g.crust
7circle
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Real Name: Ken
Location: Melbourne

supercapacitor battery's

Post by 7circle »

Good points Mat,

...mmm trying to figure out what starts to deflate.
Just note my calcs below get more complicated than I was expecting.
I hope they're on track.Image

Main point is the spec W/kg is only available when the Module is fully charged. So the energy density is not just the problem.

So 1000kg in 0-100km/h in 10 seconds takes
( oh I forgot to include losses, mainly wind resistance)
how many watt-hours = work done = F x d = Ma x d = M.a^2 x t^2
a = (100/3.6)/10 = 2.778(m/s^2)
d = a x t^2 = 2.778 x 10x10= 277.8 m
W = 1000kg x 2.778 x 277.8 (Joules) = 771728.4 (Joules)
W = 771728.4 /3600 (W.h)
W = 214.4 Wh used in 10 seconds to get to 100km/h

Energy stored in a capacitor E = 1/2 x C x V^2
But what is the power needed from the cap when the voltage has dropped down to say 1/4 of the fully charged state.

So for the BIIG baby Model: BMOD0063 P125 has Max nom voltage of 125V and C = 63F so Energy is 136.7 (W.h)
But they suggest available Energy is from Full to half voltage of 101.7 Wh

It can sustain 150A with fan running.
The power at full charge is P=VI
(P@Full V)= 125 x 150 = 18.75 kW
(P@ 1/2 V)= 62.5 x 150= 9.375 kW
(P@ 1/4 V)= 31.75x 150= 4.6875 kW

(Also, as the Rint = 18mOhm, so Losses P@150A = I^2 x R = 150x150x18[mOhm] = 405W)
So power needed for same acceleration at 90km/h to 100km/h of 2.778 (m/s^2)
P(@ 100km/h) = F.v = M.a x (v[m/s])
             = 1000[kg] x 2.778 [m/s^2] x (100/3.6)[m/s]
             = (Ek)/s = 77.167 kW

So with 2 Maxwell BMOD0063 P125 in Parallel for 250A and 63Fx2=126F combined.
What is the voltage with depleted energy of 214.4 Wh (or 77.167 kJ)
Eo-Ea = 2x136.7[Wh] - 214.4 = 59 Wh remaining
V = √(3600 x 2 x E[W.h] / C) = √(3600 x 2 x 59 / 126)
= √(3371.4) = 58 V

So to power the acceleration with only 58V
I=P/V = 77.167[kW] / 58[V] = 1330 A
(way over continuous Amps, but near 1sec rating of 750A each)

So using Energy available of 101.7 Wh per module.
And that for 1/2 Voltage Power of 67.5V x 150A = 10.125 kW

To get 1000kg to 100km/h in 10 seconds needs at least
19kW @ 25km/h
38kW @ 50km/h
77kW @ 100km/h

So for 77kW, V = P/I=77kW/150A=513.3V
So for 1/2 Voltage of 125V = 67.5V, 513.3/67.5 = Current factor 7.6
But Voltage will not have fallen this far.


for 6 modules(6x63F) and depleted energy calc for Voltage
Eo-Ea= 6x136.7 - 214.4 = 605.8 Wh
V = √(3600 x 2 x E[W.h] / C) = 107.4 V
P = 107.4 x 150

for 8 modules(8x63F) and depleted energy calc for Voltage
Eo-Ea= 8x136.7 - 214.4 = 1093.6 - 214.4 = 879.2 Wh
V = √(3600 x 2 x E[W.h] / C) = 112.1 V
P = 112.1 x 150

Oh stuff it - spread sheet used:

From Quadratic Solution of solving Power Max =
Ki     2.38     A/F     
Vmax     125     V     
Ea W.s=J     771840     214.4     Wh
Pmax     77000     W     
Module Cap (F)     63     F     

n BEST     5 (~4.96)          
Farads     315          
Er =      1689097.5          
Er [Wh]     469.19          
Im     750          
I per Module     150          
Vm     103.56          
               
Eo [Wh]     683.59          
Eavail [Wh]     512.7          


So 5 Modules required in your choice of terminal voltage would get you a high performance EV if your batteries are strictly limited to say 1C rates. ie 20kWh pack at 120V, C = 10k/120 = 83Ah,
so for 1 hour drive at 60mph 322Wh/mile = 200Wh/km (say MX-5)
gives 100km trip at 100km/h
(I need to factor in the contribution from the batteries but at 83A/750A of only 11% it's not much during the fast accelleration)

But I hate to think of the cost of 5 of these for 0.5kWh for 300kg , plus the 20kWh Battery back to get you from A2B.

Life cycle 1million Start/stops to Stop/Starts Cycles
3 years = 1095 days so just don't do 1000 per day.
But I wonder how many I would do?

I think a graph in the "BOOSTCAP® Ultracapacitor Modules" spec would be very helpful that shows the power available as the voltage/energy is released. And a 10sec current rating would be vey nice too. Image
We expect them for batteries, motors and controllers.

It's more complicated than I thought it would be.

I think I might do a non-linear spreadsheet calc so I can change values especially car weight and accel time. Once I catch my breath from this lot.

Image My track record lately for dumb mistakes is pretty high so I'm hoping i've missed something and these mighty caps are much better.
7circle
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Real Name: Ken
Location: Melbourne

supercapacitor battery's

Post by 7circle »

I found price on MOUSER site

BMOD0063-P125-B14-01
AUD$14,000 x 5 = AUD$70,000 i'm sure they could be built up from singles BOOSTCAP's with monitor PCBs for cheaper
3000F/ 2.7V
@ $174 for 3Wh of full storage.
500Wh/3 = 166 qty
166 x 174 = $29000
+PCB+link/5 is $120 = 166/5 x $120 = $4000

Prices still crazy. They need to be tenth the price!!!

Maybe they put some of these in the iMIEV Image

Edit Cheaper price at
Tecate group 3000F/2.7V @$76 50up
Last edited by 7circle on Sun, 15 Aug 2010, 22:54, edited 1 time in total.
Emil
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supercapacitor battery's

Post by Emil »

try using maxwell boost caps in series with your battery pack in a buck boost converter con fig to buffer the battery bank (maybe regen)this may help efficiency/longevity of the battery pack.
seacrust82
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supercapacitor battery's

Post by seacrust82 »

Prices for super caps






Dear Sean,



Thank you for your enquiry.



Below is the price for 13pcs of the 16V 250Farad BMOD0250 P016 modules.



Standard lead time ex Maxwell factory is 12-15 wks and should you need them sooner than this I will need to check and confirm.



Part No: BMOD0250 P016

Description: 16.2V, 250F (107168B)

Qty/Price

MOQ 3pcs        USD750 (AU$840) each

13pcs               USD695 (AU$780) each

Delivery: 12-15 wks aro



TNT Road freight to Brisbane:

3pcs (13.5kg) AU$55.00

13pcs (58.5kg) AU$185.00



Best regards,



Dean Sarelius



Australian Sales Manager



Glyn Ltd

Suite 7/201

29-31 Solent Circuit

Baulkham Hills NSW

Australia 2153

Ph: +61 2 8850 0320

M: 0437 877 001

s.g.crust
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