Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

How do you store and manage your electricity?
User avatar
reecho
Senior Member
Posts: 617
Joined: Sun, 17 Apr 2011, 02:39
Real Name: Richard Baird
Location: Perth WA
Contact:

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by reecho » Thu, 20 Sep 2018, 20:00

Thats a pretty expensive fire. $5K per Killawhatevertheyare and 2 x PIP clones. Plus the Victron MPPT charge controller.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3365
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Tue, 25 Sep 2018, 12:50

Annon wrote: Two problems here:
1. Supercapacitors do not explode or burn during over-charge
2. Where are the protection circuits?
1.
Can't say I've tried over-charging given that generic supercaps costs are high.
I would have thought they explode in a ball of fire like any other cap.
More-so since they have an extremely high discharge current.

2.
Well I'm under the impression they are an active cap-cap balance.
It won't protect against cap to cap shorts.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3365
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Tue, 25 Sep 2018, 13:08

Do I hear an echo, echo, echo....
Richo wrote:
Thu, 31 May 2018, 12:28
from what I understand Arvio are either in on the scam or have been duped by it - probably the latter.
Its just unfortunate that if a claim against this product is made in Australia it will be the importer, Arvio, that will suffer.
And given this has been part funded by the VIC govt we are talking Millions of $$.

This is why I mentioned that they are better off having one independently tested.
$3.5k vs $3.5M
At least they could say they made an effort to determine if the product was fraudulent.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3365
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Tue, 25 Sep 2018, 13:10

Perhaps Arvio could have a fire sale on both accounts...
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

User avatar
jonescg
Senior Member
Posts: 2409
Joined: Thu, 21 Jan 2010, 23:05
Real Name: Chris Jones
Location: Perth, WA.

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by jonescg » Tue, 25 Sep 2018, 17:49

Richo wrote:
Tue, 25 Sep 2018, 13:10
Perhaps Arvio could have a fire sale on both accounts...
Badoom-tish! :lol:
AEVA National Secretary, WA branch vice-chair

User avatar
Adverse Effects
Senior Member
Posts: 1039
Joined: Sat, 01 Jan 2011, 03:30
Real Name: Adverse Effects
Location: Brisbane

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Adverse Effects » Tue, 25 Sep 2018, 21:45

Richo wrote:
Tue, 25 Sep 2018, 13:10
Perhaps Arvio could have a fire sale on both accounts...
ROFL
If you don't have time to do it right,
When will you have time to do it over

Help those who help themselves first

TCryptos
Noobie
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon, 02 Apr 2018, 05:28
Real Name: Thor

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by TCryptos » Wed, 26 Sep 2018, 08:34

This is why I mentioned that they are better off having one independently tested.
One would have thought that opening the case and seeing the bits of wood, cardboard, tape and hot melt glue might have been an itsy-bitsy clue.

Mikem
Noobie
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed, 26 Sep 2018, 09:58

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Mikem » Wed, 26 Sep 2018, 10:10

Hi All,

Have been following this thread with great interest and we have been able to get our hands on a 3.5KW unit and open it up.
The unit was supposed to be fully discharged, having run a water heater overnight. Measuring across the terminals, we found about 30V.
We are certainly not electrical minded people so if there are any tests or measurements you guys could suggest it would be appreciated.
20180926_110706_resized.jpg
20180926_110651_resized.jpg
20180926_111627_resized.jpg
20180926_111622_resized.jpg
20180926_111609_resized.jpg
Last edited by Mikem on Wed, 03 Oct 2018, 09:31, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3365
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Wed, 26 Sep 2018, 12:39

Mikem wrote:
Wed, 26 Sep 2018, 10:10
The unit was supposed to be fully discharged, having run a water heater overnight. Measuring across the terminals, we found about 30V.
In a "capacitor" system not all of the stored energy can actually be used.
So at some point a DC/DC that keeps the output useable will shut down even though there is voltage left in the system.

It is also likely that the unit will not output power due to a low voltage shut off to simulate a "flat battery".

To complicate it further you can actually get hybrid capacitors that have a high and low voltage like a battery.
https://au.element14.com/c/passive-comp ... d=vinatech
So even when 90%+ energy is used there still is voltage.

Pulling a single cell out of the unit and doing a CC charge and discharge should show if it is a cap or battery.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3365
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Wed, 26 Sep 2018, 12:52

So the balance wires from each block of parallel "cap" is cable tied to it neighbour and runs off to the balance board.
Should ANY joint fail and short out anywhere - BOOM.

Not to mention the extra heat from bundling all the wires together would have to be de-rated to be safe.
Should the middle wire get too hot and melt the insulation - BOOM.

And I am definitely not keen on the soldering wires to silpins with no heatshrink or silicone.
Oh and the 2 wires on the left half way up the pic - it HAS heatshrink but doesn't actually cover the joint - classic.

Image
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

T1 Terry
Senior Member
Posts: 732
Joined: Thu, 30 Sep 2010, 20:11
Real Name: Terry Covill
Location: Mannum SA

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by T1 Terry » Wed, 26 Sep 2018, 14:38

Oh and the 2 wires on the left half way up the pic - it HAS heatshrink but doesn't actually cover the joint - classic.
That's an over heat indicator. If it's been too hot the heat shrink will be tight on the wire as an indicator it has been hot at some time, charred black means it has been on fire at some time :twisted:

T1 Terry
Green but want to learn

T1 Terry
Senior Member
Posts: 732
Joined: Thu, 30 Sep 2010, 20:11
Real Name: Terry Covill
Location: Mannum SA

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by T1 Terry » Wed, 26 Sep 2018, 14:52

Often puzzled by any balancing or monitoring wires connected to each cell but has no fuse at the source end. One wire rubbing into a wire from a different voltage cell will start the melted process that ends in a fire. We build 12v and 24v house battery systems and wouldn't consider running any cabling from the cells without a fuse rated well within the max current rating for the wire size used.
I did see one that had data cable used for cell volt sensing. A short at the output end and it burnt through the cabling all the way back to the battery before it reached the end of the insulation and was able to melt the conductor, quite a big rewiring job.

T1 Terry
Green but want to learn

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3365
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Thu, 27 Sep 2018, 12:48

Understandably a complete system balancer is cheaper than a per-cell module.
I can't stand all the wires personally.
I'll only have a per-cell BMS in my ev - no wires.
Costs a bit more but no chance of a wiring issue.

The black bootlaces are 1.5mm.
So 10-15A wire max.
18 wires in a bundle.
Sounds delightful.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

CampingNut
Noobie
Posts: 1
Joined: Tue, 04 Dec 2018, 16:42

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by CampingNut » Tue, 04 Dec 2018, 17:39

A couple of observations....

I don't think we can really label the capacitor as a new technology. They were invented in 1745 (!!).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor
and a small quote "Even Early capacitors were known as condensers, a term that is still occasionally used today, particularly in high power applications, such as automotive systems. The term was first used for this purpose by Alessandro Volta in 1782, with reference to the device's ability to store a higher density of electric charge than was possible with an isolated conductor.[12][1] The term became deprecated because of the ambiguous meaning of steam condenser, with capacitor becoming the recommended term from 1926"

I found that particularly interesting as it referred to Alessandro Volta, the nice chap who the Volt is named after.

The term "supercapacitor" from my novel internet searches so far has merely been a capacitor with a much larger charge capacity.

Sorry, that was an unintended pun with "capacity", however it is an interesting part of the english language... "a persons capacity to accept new ideas" and "a capacitors capacity to accept a charge" are synonomous concepts. Anyway.. I digress...

There is also room for thought on the fact that there will always be a company that wants to blaze a path into newer uses of technology. They are the birthplace of tech startups and entrepreneurs and in Australia, our wonderful nation, we foster all kinds of leaders, and good for us that we do.
That being said... we Aussies are also a great bunch to bring the world of a tall poppy down "see... that didn't get you anywhere! go and get a job!"
By the same token, if we didn't have innovators.. the world will sail past us with their own innovators leaving us on the long catch up, with all things being equal of course.

This is an interesting youtube link to a company supplying supercapacitor product on a slightly larger scale.. with a storage of 1.5 MW... yes blink your eyes with me lol.. 1.5 million Watts of storage! (yeah, I had to replay that part of the video 4 times to make sure I heard it right lol!)
https://youtu.be/KQ2Eo6wl5r0
That went to the Isle of Eigg in Scotland to smooth out the cities brownouts. If you didn't know, the entire Isle of Eigg residents run on 90-95% renewable energy, homes get 5kW and businesses get 10kW allocations voted on by the people.
Articles on them http://www.bbc.com/future/story/2017032 ... nd-of-eigg
and http://www.isleofeigg.org/eigg-electric/

I think its very fair to say that supercapacitors are here to stay.

But more so.... would we not stand together as very proud Aussies if we had beaten all the world to have the first community on 90-95% renewable energy? And would we not be doubly proud if Aussie companies were developing products and exporting them to the world like the Skeleton company?

If you like Aussies being leaders and exporting innovation.. then when they make a mistake, should we not be saying... "C'mon mate, pick yourself up, dust yourself off, learn from the lesson and do it better tomorrow.. we know you can do it!"

I'm also thinking It's around 5 months to ANZAC day.. and those two world wars galvanised great mateship, camaraderie and steadfastness in our societies...

shouldn't we tap into that wonderful resource all year round and cheer on our fellow Aussies?

I hope everyone has a wonderful Christmas and a Happy New Year!! Please stay safe on the roads!!

User avatar
Johny
Senior Member
Posts: 3717
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 16:26
Real Name: John Wright
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Johny » Tue, 04 Dec 2018, 19:52

Wow. Let's trot out the "tall poppies" drivel because some snake oil salesfolk want to make money off ignorance. Real shame the Vic government fell for that BS.
Nice touch giving us a history lesson though.

User avatar
Adverse Effects
Senior Member
Posts: 1039
Joined: Sat, 01 Jan 2011, 03:30
Real Name: Adverse Effects
Location: Brisbane

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Adverse Effects » Tue, 04 Dec 2018, 20:08

A:- this is a EV forum not some sort of weird English / history school
B:- there NOT SUPER CAPS there FAKE
C:- what has anything you said directly got to do with the discussion so far in this thread?
If you don't have time to do it right,
When will you have time to do it over

Help those who help themselves first

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3365
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Wed, 05 Dec 2018, 12:59

CampingNut wrote:
Tue, 04 Dec 2018, 17:39
This is an interesting youtube link to a company supplying a supercapacitor product on a slightly larger scale.. with a storage of 1.5 MW...
MW is POWER - NOT storage.

Utility companies tent to provide info in terms of MW capability.
How much instantaneous power they can provide.
You could get a MW of power out of 200 caps - you could probably fit that on a car.
Great if you want an electric Veyron.

If it was MWh then that is CAPACITY.
Typically 1MWh of caps would cost $15,000,000.
To make that viable they would have to sell electricity at $5.55/kWh.
OR over 20x the current cost of electricity.

AND the penny drops why they don't have supercaps as storage for power stations...
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2500
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Yesterday, 07:25

In comments in the SolarQuotes blog, someone called "J" commented on the before and after fire photos, claiming there was something fishy because some of the wiring and boxes on the wall were different between the two photos. But he was counting from the left and somehow failed to notice that the after shot was a wider angle and included a box that was outside the before shot, while the "box" that was second from the left in the before shot was actually a piece of plastic duct which had vaporised in the after shot.

In response, Guy Stewart posted a cool overlay of the two photos.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tzfx47khd7vho ... s.jpg?dl=0
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3365
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Yesterday, 12:43

That's dedication overlaying the two.
So they DO match up bar the box not in the wide shot which is not relevant to the fire.

There are a number of other things I notice now about the fire.
The power point on the right has exposed cable hammered to the wall.
So I'm thinking that their regulations are somewhat lax compared to Australia.
The wall had been rendered recently.
The fire has blasted this render off the wall - impressive.
You can see it as the white part in all the black on the wall.

And the Neutral bar was mounted directly to this wall.
The render I bet had a higher moisture content causing conduction from the busbar to somewhere unintentional.
Or perhaps is was like the skin of the Hindenburg :x

There is also a freaky white patch on the switch board yet the rest is charred.
Freaky :lol:

Pitty there wern't any more photo's or some form of proper investigation report.
Just adds to the list of is/isn't regarding this product.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2500
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Yesterday, 12:58

That white patch on the switchboard looks like a patch of direct sunlight coming through a hole in the roof or the opposite wall and overexposing that part of the image.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2500
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Today, 10:22

Someone has just popped up on the South African Power Forum claiming to know about the installation that burned, and wanting to "put the record straight".

Trouble is, he appears to be delusional.

He claims:
(a) there was no over-current protection, when a blade fuse is plainly visible in the before photo, and
(b) there was no fire—only a DC arc.

He also implies that the owner is certifiably insane, by claiming that the owner has had the system redone "using exactly the same modules" (but by a better qualified installer). No evidence is provided for this.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

Post Reply