Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

How do you store and manage your electricity?
User avatar
Johny
Senior Member
Posts: 3672
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 16:26
Real Name: John Wright
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Johny » Fri, 08 Jun 2018, 10:35

Adverse Effects wrote:
Fri, 08 Jun 2018, 08:38
ChemicalHorizon wrote:
Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 21:25
Richo wrote:
Thu, 07 Jun 2018, 12:46
5x the energy density as the lithium rechargeable.
Shut up and take my money! How good will my hand stick vacuum be with these things in it!
noooooo careful you will suck the carpet off the floor
Yep - there would be a sucker involved somewhere...

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Fri, 08 Jun 2018, 12:20

Just imagine you could power your 100km+ eV or your house for a day for something the size of a briefcase.
Magic carbon is so AWESOME.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

User avatar
Adverse Effects
Senior Member
Posts: 995
Joined: Sat, 01 Jan 2011, 03:30
Real Name: Adverse Effects
Location: Brisbane

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Adverse Effects » Fri, 08 Jun 2018, 19:23

LOL i just re-watched there last vid and i quote
0:39 so we can't turn it on manually these
0:41 terminals are off we have a look here on
0:43 the multimeter you can see that there's
0:45 no power here it's available on here
0:49 nothing no box so now the units almost
0:53 booted up fully here we go I just open
0:56 up here and the circuit breaker turns on
he just barely taps the probes on the terminal for a split sec and it reads voltage
and this is with the braker OFF

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Mon, 11 Jun 2018, 12:42

Ah did you see on the front of the box in big writing it has "CAPACITOR MODULE*".
Note the little *.
Down the bottom it says "*capacitors not included" :lol:

There problem solved :P
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Mon, 11 Jun 2018, 12:44

It's interesting to note that in the background there are like a hundred people crowding around another stand.
Then they leave and all just walk straight past.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

ChemicalHorizon
Noobie
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue, 01 May 2018, 18:27
Real Name: Anthony Rich

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by ChemicalHorizon » Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 14:19

I found the equivalent witch craft going on in mining.

This mob (http://haoma.com.au/)...claim to be able to detect hundreds of g/t of gold in tailings where traditional methods only find <1g/t. Sounds too good to be true right? Well, they have convinced people to invest the order of millions into the company. A company which has been de-listed from the ASX when no certified Geologist would endorse their statements (not JORC compliant). There are some high profile names on their share registry too.

The point of this post...

- It doesn't take much to con alot of money from people.
- Companies survive years (20+ years) on pseudo science and tricks...many hoping to convince a few new people each year to invest in them hoping to be successful, one day.
- Companies which cannot get, or wont get, independent engineers, labs (Geologist in the above case) to sign-off their advertising is the real thing, should be met with caution.

Until Killowatt / ARVIO demonstrate the chemistry of their cells, by independent labs with results open to scientific scrutiny, stay well clear. It is NOT good enough to say "but look how it performs at the terminals". That doesn't answer the question of validating the "super capacitor" label in the name.

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2410
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 14:57

I agree 100% with everything you wrote above, except this:
ChemicalHorizon wrote:
Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 14:19
It is NOT good enough to say "but look how it performs at the terminals". That doesn't answer the question of validating the "super capacitor" label in the name.
I'd like to understand why you say that, because AFAIK it is obvious to everyone here who has the training and experience to understand the difference between a battery and a capacitor, that the question of the validity of the "supercapacitor" label has been answered resoundingly in the negative, merely by looking at how the individual cells perform "at the terminals".

Given the large number of different chemical substances that can be used to make a capacitor, surely the property of being a capacitor has very little to do with chemistry and everything to do with behaviour at the terminals.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

ChemicalHorizon
Noobie
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue, 01 May 2018, 18:27
Real Name: Anthony Rich

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by ChemicalHorizon » Mon, 18 Jun 2018, 18:24

I was not referring to yours and others analysis in the terminal testing on this site. Sorry, may have come across that way.

I should have said it is not enough for Arvio to claim the terminal tests validate it's a supercapacitor. Agree all the tests actually show it's a battery, but it still says supercap on the box...burden of proof is on them, and more terminal tests don't improve their position.

The only way to validate the Arvo position is by intrusive analysis of the cells. Yes there are many variations, but it will be clear by the chemistry and construction.

User avatar
digsys
Noobie
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu, 21 May 2009, 02:49
Real Name: James Kirk
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by digsys » Yesterday, 09:20

I think that horse has been beaten to death enough :-) Not getting up in this lifetime ...
Came across this yesterday, and a cursory search shows great promise. I have been experimenting with an embedded supercap idea for ages, so the bastids beat me to it :-)
The 5X more powerful needs to be scrutinized, but the rest seems very plausible !! Thoughts? Haven't spent too much time on it yet, hopefully by the weekend.
https://newatlas.com/nawa-technologies- ... tor/54972/
www.nawatechnologies.com/en/products/

User avatar
weber
Site Admin
Posts: 2410
Joined: Fri, 23 Jan 2009, 17:27
Real Name: Dave Keenan
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by weber » Yesterday, 10:24

Looks like vapourware to me. Did you find any product specs that would allow one to calculate watt-hours per litre? I didn't. But at least they are not making ridiculous claims about watt-hours per kilogram (less than a tenth of that of lithium-ion batteries).

And when they write: “In the long term, the possibilities offered by our electrode material will enable us to develop hybrid ultracapacitor cells with performance levels approaching those of lithium-ion batteries or even advanced lithium batteries that will surpass current lithium batteries in terms of fast charging and lyfecycle.", they are talking about battery/supercap hybrids. I predict that, to the degree their performance approaches that of lithium-ion batteries, they will be lithium-ion batteries, and their life-span will fall to that of lithium-ion batteries.
One of the fathers of MeXy the electric MX-5, along with Coulomb and Newton (Jeff Owen).

User avatar
digsys
Noobie
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu, 21 May 2009, 02:49
Real Name: James Kirk
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by digsys » Yesterday, 12:56

weber wrote: .... Did you find any product specs that would allow one to calculate watt-hours per litre?
Like I said, I haven't scrutinized it all in detail BUT they are very clear that it IS a lithium cell WITH an embedded supercap, which is what I have been working on for a while.
Having the supercap embedded with EACH cell increases the efficiency and effectiveness of the combo a HUGE amount. Having long strings of supercaps externally connected
to 200V++ packs is extremely lossy, damn complicated to manage and has limited advantages (to what they can truly achieve).
Hopefully, soon, I'll get access to a dyno and be able to run real-world tests, but bench tests are quite favourable.
Volumetrically, you'd reason that you can't get any better than 1+ (extra volume of the caps), but they are embedding them IN the lithium cells, so all bets are off.
(I connect them, plus other filters) directly across each cell). The 5X numbers etc seem a bit far fetched, and maybe there is a bit of embellishment :-) -
but the company does seem legit at least.
A stand-alone supercap or Lithium cell was ALWAYS going to be bull, but a TRUE hybrid ... new story.

The Watt-hrs per litre may not be better (by much?), it's the efficiency increase the caps > the Lithium cells that we can't calculate easily right now.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3187
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by Richo » Today, 13:06

NAWA looks like another hopes and dreams company.
All CGI no real photo's of anything.
Their link to the Geneva Auto show doesn't just talk about NAWA but many supercap manufacturers.
In fact the only comment made about them was that NAWA "believe" they could reduce a formula-e car from 300kg to 200kg.
No attempt - no proof - just wild claims.
Their comparison was a lithium battery with 5,000 cycles.
I'm sure if they compared it to a real LTO with 40,000 cycles and capabilities of 60C their "super" cap looks "super" crap.

Another link claims they got a grant for a "BATTERY' not a capacitor.

They talk about structural tests with airbus - but no link to any proof or even a link to some form of scientific results.
Just a comment made by NAWA.

Sorry it all looks like hype to me.

When you get to large pack sizes for EV's even a fast charge, fast discharge, or regen has little impact on life of a battery.
22kVA -> 22kWh pack = 1C so a supercap wont help.
Even leaf cells are 4C/9C.
Toshiba's SCiB are 40,000 cycles to 80% AT 10C charge and 10C discharge.
So 22kW pack needs 220kW charging station.
AND a 220kW motor continuous and 1.3MW peak - YES that's a Veyron.
WHO has an electric Veyron?
Still NO supercaps needed.

SO I guess if you have 1MW ev charging station with an Electric Veyron - supercaps might be an option...
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

User avatar
digsys
Noobie
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu, 21 May 2009, 02:49
Real Name: James Kirk
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Arvio 3.5kWh drop-in-battery-replacement supercapacitor on sale

Post by digsys » Today, 17:04

Richo wrote: NAWA looks like another hopes and dreams company. .... Sorry it all looks like hype to me.
You may well be completely correct, and likely are, reading your investigations. But as I said, I haven't had time to track their claims and some did seem unreasonable.
The part that caught my attention big time was the integration of supercaps and lithiums in the same cell !! I've been working on a hybrid version for a while,
and it has huge promise. Volume wise, as a wild guess, a 5KWh Li + same vol of supercaps (2X) would be reduced to say 1.3X, with other major advantages.
I've been trying to get hold of Teslas 21-70s (not competitors 21700) to work with, and would definitely like to get hold of a few of these (like you say .. IF they exist)
It was the "hybrid integration" that caught my attention, as I haven't found anyone talk about this before. It pricked up my ears !! :-)
Separate supercap packs are "old news" and have many disadvantages / difficulties / complexities.

Post Reply