To import or to build? New to EV's

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Mikeymcblimey
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To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by Mikeymcblimey » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 09:02

Hi,
I am new to the EV world but have set up solar power to run items around the home so I am not a total novice, however, I have been through the forums and read numerous builds and VIC roads documents and I am struggling to put a picture together. Basically I am returning to motorbikes after a 10 year hiatus due to children and life taking over. As it will be completely leisure use I am very interested in an electric motorbike as I don't plan on doing big trips. As others have expressed the choice of motorbike compared with what is available overseas is abysmal so I started looking at possible importing but I can't find a straight answer on that front, either I would need to register it as SEC beforehand or I need to own it for a year and prove I used it. One thread mentioned having to buy multiple vehicles so they could be crash tested but others disagreed with that for motorcycles.
I looked at possibly converting a bike, which really tickles my fancy to be honest, but I'm not sure about which parts are needed and even how to trust whether a motor is powerful enough or not? I'm not a speedster and much prefer the style of a cafe racer or cruiser to sports bikes, and again there are good looking bikes in Europe, US and even China but just a Supersoco here.
If I was to convert an existing motorbike I know it needs to be inspected and tested before registering which is what makes me nervous as although I'm happy to knock things together in the garage I'm not sure it would pass an inspection!
Budget wise I imagine what you put in is what you get out and I reason that if your going to do build it then it should be with the best you can afford but that brings me on to batteries and how to work out what you need and how to determine your power/speed/range
In short I think my best solution would importing something but I wonder if anyone has ever done this and what was really involved? If anyone has any pointers I will gladly take it all on board and research, research, research but at the moment I don't know which path to walk down.

antiscab
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by antiscab » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 09:52

Importing a new motorbike costs around $10k - $15k in harmonisation paperwork.
It's only worth it if you plan on starting a business selling them

There have been a few electric motorbikes sold in Australia - Vectrix, Zero, I think Brammo sold a couple
There was at least one sport bike based on a hyosung chasis, whose name I forget

cheapest way would be to modify something like a Vectrix. I put foot pegs on mine and raised the centre of gravity so I could ride it more like a sports bike.

petrol bikes don't tend to have much room for batteries, which limits you somewhat
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

Mikeymcblimey
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by Mikeymcblimey » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 10:31

Thanks, I figured importing a whole bike would work out expensive but I just need to work out the full parts list for a reno, including the donor bike. My main issue is the motor and once I know that I'll work the rest out to match . I don't want anything that's going to win a drag race but keeping a steady 60-70 km would be nice.
I've been trying to find out if you can import parts, again a motor/controller without too much hassle...

antiscab
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by antiscab » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 11:10

oh parts are easy to import

you pays your money, they hand over the goods to DHL or fedex or sometimes china post and it arrives at your door in 3 days or 4 days or 8 weeks.

that doesn't work for batteries though

where are you located out of curiosity?
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

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bladecar
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by bladecar » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 12:05

Just occasionally, I observe a "pushbike" motoring by, with a battery container on it and I think, "that thing seems to almost have the abilities of an electric motorcycle. I don't know the brands I occasionally see but depending on your level of expectation, I think you could do worse than to "genuinely" research what is available in that style of transportation.

In my view, vectrixes are like imievs today, at the lower level of electric transportation. They work well when they're working but they are for "gentle" transport, very good for it. The imiev has some level of maintenance available, the vectrix has none.

The few "home-made" electric motorcycles, modified petrol bikes, appear to have been done for hobby purposes and cannot match any commercial product for usability.

I'm wanting an electric motorbike of the future where you can leave it at the dealer who has intelligent plug-in diagnostic equipment to tell you what the problem is, none of this "this error code has been reported some time in the last 100 hours billshot", AND doesn't hit you with the "if we have to use our diagnostic equipment, you have to pay this $ of money upfront total crap. What a private-enterprise carry-on that is. It should be illegal in a modern intergrated circuit environment to pay them to use the same equipment the car is made of.

And I want above dealer to have all the parts, to be able to swap them in a short time, to see that it has been the actual problem, and to have a reasonable cost.

Other than that, I want very little.

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Richo
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by Richo » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 12:33

antiscab wrote:
Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 09:52
petrol bikes don't tend to have much room for batteries, which limits you somewhat
I don't think that the hub motors are that great at the moment.
So the real issue is trying to fit the batteries AND the motor in the frame.

A few weeks back I was looking at the Nighthawk cafe racer 250.
They still have the tube frame to put all that in.
But I have been told they are a bit on the heavy side so are a bit sluggish.
Nothing an electric motor couldn't fix. ;)

I'm sure there are other suitable donors around as I'm far from a Motorcycle expert.

I doubt power/performance will be the issue - more the range due to the space constraints once the motor is in.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Richo
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by Richo » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 12:36

bladecar wrote:
Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 12:05
Just occasionally, I observe a "pushbike" motoring by, with a battery container on it and I think, "that thing seems to almost have the abilities of an electric motorcycle.
Mmmm I've seen those top end electric bicycles.
I followed one at 90kph in an 80 zone :o
All quite illegal.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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bladecar
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by bladecar » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 12:41

I just want to observe that power/performance of ev's is never an issue if we don't define what we mean by that.

Truly not trying just to be smart but you could probably have the weediest ev break the chain and bend the frame before using up its power and sliding to a halt 5 metres down the track, sort of thing if it were not relying on that broken chain :)

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Richo
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by Richo » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 12:46

You could always look through what other people have done
http://www.evalbum.com/type/MTCY
They will have a list of they main parts they used to convert a motorcycle.

http://www.evalbum.com/4933
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Richo
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by Richo » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 12:53

Mikeymcblimey wrote:
Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 09:02
I'm not a speedster and much prefer the style of a cafe racer or cruiser to sports bikes
bladecar wrote:
Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 12:41
I just want to observe that power/performance of ev's is never an issue if we don't define what we mean by that.
Well in this case Mikey did sort of indicate the motorbike he was after.
A 250cc are in the range of 20-30kW.
A lot of electric motors can easily do this.
So power wont be an issue even once its defined.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

Mikeymcblimey
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by Mikeymcblimey » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 13:26

I'm located south of Melbourne. I figured batteries were a nono but wasn't sure about the motors etc. I ruled out hub because they dont seem powerful enough and you get stuck with a tiny wheel. I like the idea of mounting in the frame with the battery pack and trying to create a shroud that looks enginey, Ive seen a couple of manufacturers that have made them look like a 125cc block.
Ideally a dealer sold make would be best but something seems to be stopping it and I don't fancy an ex uber scooter.
I've looked through evalbum and there are some good builds in there. Ive come across qsmotors on a few forums and had a look on their site. Have to get quotes on what you want but wondered if anyone else has come across/used them?

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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by Mikeymcblimey » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 14:02

If I've copied it right, something like this is what I'm thinking.
cafe.png
cafe.png (430.26 KiB) Viewed 397 times

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Richo
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by Richo » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 14:46

Sure that'll do it.

So the process would be:
1. Decide IF you want to convert or go for a production vehicle
2. If you're converting pick out the type of donor vehicle.
3. Pick out the motor to match the performance you want for the vehicle.
4. Select a controller to run that motor.
5. Select batteries that run the controller and gives the desired range and power.
6. Select charger to suit batteries.
7. Buy stuff and convert.
8. Have fun...
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

Mikeymcblimey
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by Mikeymcblimey » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 14:57

When you put it like that it seems simple...

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Richo
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by Richo » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 15:05

Mikeymcblimey wrote:
Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 13:26
Ive come across qsmotors on a few forums and had a look on their site.
I was under the impression QS motors were hub motors - more aimed at scooters.
The prices are on aliexpress.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Richo
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by Richo » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 15:06

Mikeymcblimey wrote:
Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 14:57
...it seems simple...
Well until money gets involved and time and family...
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

Mikeymcblimey
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by Mikeymcblimey » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 15:20

On the QS site they have mid mounted motors as well as the hub ones. I'll have a look at AliExpress though

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Richo
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by Richo » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 15:37

So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by mikedufty » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 21:37

Have you looked at the evoke bikes? Hub motors, but full size wheel and seem to have sufficient performance for you (130kph).
https://www.evokemotorcycles.com.au/urban-series
Fairly pricy I think, can only see one second hand one on bikesales and that says "huge savings on new" at $12,500. Still about 1/3 the cost of a Zero.

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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by antiscab » Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 22:39

mikedufty wrote:
Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 21:37
Have you looked at the evoke bikes? Hub motors, but full size wheel and seem to have sufficient performance for you (130kph).
https://www.evokemotorcycles.com.au/urban-series
Fairly pricy I think, can only see one second hand one on bikesales and that says "huge savings on new" at $12,500. Still about 1/3 the cost of a Zero.
bike looks good though it's specs don'd add up
hub motor with max 116.6Nm on 180/55/17 tyres means max 370N at wheel. with 244kg (169kg bike + 75kg rider) thats max acceleration of 1.5ms-2 or 0 -100kmh in 18.3s in a vacuum.
not quite 0-100 in 6 seconds.

Vectrix for comparison has 390Nm at the wheel on 140/60/13 tyres or max 1565N at wheel

Maybe the hub motor is internally geared for more at wheel torque?

So at least one bike in the real world, though no reports back from people who have actually had a ride.

I wonder what the seller of the second hand one has to say about it?
Matt
2017 Renault zoe - 25'000km
2007 vectrix - 156'000km
1998 prius - needs Batt
1999 Prius - needs batt
2000 prius - has 200 x headway 38120 cells

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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by mikedufty » Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 00:36


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Richo
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by Richo » Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 13:03

mikedufty wrote:
Mon, 16 Sep 2019, 21:37
Fairly pricey I think... at $12,500.
Me thinks too :lol:

You do a whole conversion less than that.

I'd start with the ME1507 motor.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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Richo
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by Richo » Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 13:10

Here's a motor + controller for $3,277.91.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Motenergy-E ... ctupt=true
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

Mikeymcblimey
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by Mikeymcblimey » Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 13:43

I had seen the Evoke but didn't think it was available here, didn't look hard enough. Personally I just don't like the sports style but I understand that they probably allow for the most battery/motor layout. Also, if you're trying to convert bikers to electric a track racer is probably more likely to try it than a Hell's Angel. I checked out ALIexpress and came across this;

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3305869 ... b201603_52

There's a couple of other motor designs but I thought it looked chic?

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Richo
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Re: To import or to build? New to EV's

Post by Richo » Tue, 17 Sep 2019, 14:38

4.5kW/9kW seems a bit under powered.
I'd be surprised if you could get to 100kph.
Nice price tho
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!

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