Heater-- Demister

Open for any sort of non-technical discussion regarding EVs
Goombi
Senior Member
Posts: 532
Joined: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 17:59
Real Name: Eugen
Location: Gympie

Heater-- Demister

Post by Goombi » Wed, 27 Aug 2008, 01:17

Please do not compare a hot water element against elictrical element. Quote: A performance comparable to that of the original demisting system must be maintained
The only way to maintain the original heating and demist is by boiling water.For me boiling water is impractical. I respect your argument, but i will do it my way. If you have no doubt at all that the ceramic el. heater is safe, by all means you install it.. I feel it will be up to every installer to judge the safty of ceramic heater or any other demister.. This is a new area in conversion and if there is but one fire or electrocution . I will not have any part in suggesting to to install this or that... This debate has to take priority for safety and the argument presented to the vehicle registrar, even though their directives suggest the impossible and most impractical. I am positive the registrar will look at every inovative suggestion in a practical way.Provided it can be proven to be totaly safe..

User avatar
DVR
Groupie
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun, 22 Jun 2008, 23:01
Real Name: Shane
Location: Adelaide

Heater-- Demister

Post by DVR » Wed, 27 Aug 2008, 01:49


ERRR....... You started this thread by asking ...........
(quote)"I like to hear from you how you overcome the open element hot wires under the dashboard"(unquote)
remember that?
I and others have told you that there are NO exposed elements or wires under the dash. It's all contained in the heater box. Not EXPOSED.

"Please do not compare a hot water element against elictrical element."
Sorry but NCOP14 says YOU MUST!!!! and it's a warning that the inspection process WILL also. you cant ignore it just because you think it's impractical.

"I am positive the registrar will look at every inovative suggestion in a practical way.Provided it can be proven to be totaly safe.."
AND effective. Don't forget that, It HAS to be effective. It can be as safe as feathers but if it doesn't work it wont pass

Look it's up to you, if you don't want to do it fine, that's the beauty of DIY. However, if your gonna look into this you should do it with your eyes open.
Last edited by DVR on Tue, 26 Aug 2008, 15:53, edited 1 time in total.


So long and thanks for all the fish.

Goombi
Senior Member
Posts: 532
Joined: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 17:59
Real Name: Eugen
Location: Gympie

Heater-- Demister

Post by Goombi » Wed, 27 Aug 2008, 02:09

I will swap some heating/demister energy efficiency anytime for the safety.
The worse part is that people use air con with fans alernator charger from drive motor =to cool the car charge the battery etc and then wander why their travel distance is 30 km with you beaut eqipment and late model car of cours power steering etc... My EV will be practically stripped of all that will possibly use any part of battery power. The way to consider electric car is to go purely basic.. as siple as possible and as light...

Gow864
Groupie
Posts: 202
Joined: Sun, 27 Jul 2008, 04:37
Real Name: (John) Gary
Location: Bellingen NSW

Heater-- Demister

Post by Gow864 » Wed, 27 Aug 2008, 02:35

This is what I'm going to use.

http://www.metricmind.com/heater_w.htm

"Plug and "Play" what a thought.....

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Goombi
Senior Member
Posts: 532
Joined: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 17:59
Real Name: Eugen
Location: Gympie

Heater-- Demister

Post by Goombi » Wed, 27 Aug 2008, 20:19



Big test with this heater tomorrow.. It is a ceramic one 12v-150w plug to cig lighter or hard wire. When blowing hot air from about 1 ft the window gets warm and that is a good sign.. The car will be all fogged up and timed how long it takes to demist the window. Then the same will be done with subaru's normal demister and compare..



uploads/437/Demister-heater.jpg

These heaters are freely available retail 39$ sale 33$-- adjustable for up and down and can be used as a swivel base... and if you going to use 240 volt under the dashboard with all the high voltage commotion,
then this is obviously a cheaper and safer way. Result in heat the same even if one was to use 2 units. Instead of belowheat its above heat>//Compare

Goombi
Senior Member
Posts: 532
Joined: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 17:59
Real Name: Eugen
Location: Gympie

Heater-- Demister

Post by Goombi » Wed, 27 Aug 2008, 20:26

GOW 864

http://www.metricmind.com/ this is a mighty informative web site. Lots to do with EV and AC power.. good one

Goombi
Senior Member
Posts: 532
Joined: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 17:59
Real Name: Eugen
Location: Gympie

Heater-- Demister

Post by Goombi » Thu, 28 Aug 2008, 16:01


Goombi
Senior Member
Posts: 532
Joined: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 17:59
Real Name: Eugen
Location: Gympie

Heater-- Demister

Post by Goombi » Thu, 28 Aug 2008, 16:06

uploads/437/DSC02157-2.jpg
Test was a steamy success the inside car is wet but the windsreen is dry with a low speed of car fan air it took just on 5 min from London fog to clear sky... I feel its worth considering--- see the post above

Goombi
Senior Member
Posts: 532
Joined: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 17:59
Real Name: Eugen
Location: Gympie

Heater-- Demister

Post by Goombi » Thu, 28 Aug 2008, 17:03

I will make no comparison with my Forester as I intended--From Cold the Forester will lose against instant heater blowing on windscreen.. It may not be a super jet but its effective and it works.

The whole car was steamed up-one could hardly see the clock by applying heater and its own fan plus low speed car fan the windsreen was clearing up within 2 min and totaly in less then 5 min. the side windows were condensating and running down, The Windsreen was dry and clear. The conclusion.

We all know that we hardly use demister actually I could never work out if it needed cold or hot air to demist. .
The heater is good on a cold day. and yes the car got warm in 5 min. so you Melbournians and Canberraites this will work for your cold bones. The battery dropped in 5 min 0,27volt But I am only using a 40 amp oldie for test.
I am pleased with the Test and now i can leave this subject with a satisfaction that i have proven my theory correct . Without lots of extra work and risky High voltage seting up with all sorts of condensers and diodes resistors etc. Its Plug and play and its the simplest way. Why don't you try it out... See the 2 previous posts and pictures please.

The ceramic heater is 150 watt with fan hot/cold plug to cig. lighter or can be hardwired to a car system If you have a big vehicle or van possibly 2 units will serve you even better .
The unit can be mounted to dashboard with velcro (supplied) or 2 or one screw and can be used as swivel. Retail price 39.95 plus postage available at Auto spare parts shops.

I will submit this finding to my QT inspector for his comment.




drowe67
Groupie
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri, 18 Apr 2008, 20:14
Real Name: David Rowe
Location: Adelaide
Contact:

Heater-- Demister

Post by drowe67 » Fri, 29 Aug 2008, 02:06

Nice solution Goombi - cheap, fast to install and simple. Well done!

User avatar
acmotor
Senior Member
Posts: 3595
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2007, 03:30
Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

Heater-- Demister

Post by acmotor » Fri, 29 Aug 2008, 02:32

iMiEV MY12     105,131km in pure Electric and loving it !

User avatar
woody
Senior Member
Posts: 1714
Joined: Sat, 21 Jun 2008, 02:03
Real Name: Anthony Wood
Location: Mt Colah

Heater-- Demister

Post by woody » Sat, 30 Aug 2008, 02:02

I know this will apply to at least one other forum member: does anyone know if you need still need a demister if your car didn't have one to start with?
(My Cortina never had one despite being sold in Bowral in the NSW Southern Highlands!)

Planned EV: '63 Cortina using AC and LiFePO4 Battery Pack

Goombi
Senior Member
Posts: 532
Joined: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 17:59
Real Name: Eugen
Location: Gympie

Heater-- Demister

Post by Goombi » Sat, 30 Aug 2008, 03:09

If the car had no demist originally then you will not need one . If you are making a Conversion to EV then you will need one.. Must have been very old Cortina. Did it have a heater? if so then it also had a demister -perhaps disconnected.

User avatar
DVR
Groupie
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun, 22 Jun 2008, 23:01
Real Name: Shane
Location: Adelaide

Heater-- Demister

Post by DVR » Sun, 07 Sep 2008, 00:36

I found this on a thread in DIYEV forum.
Image
LINK HERE
This thing is $64.99US plus freight, 1500W 120V out the box!!! Why am I building one?
Blurb says it has a built in thermostat(AC most likely) it will heat a V8 in 3 hours - but doesn't say to what temp. I believe they are talking about heating a stone cold engine in freezing condition so I think as we are only talking about heating a core with maybe 3 liters of water and not a huge lump of an "ICE" (pun intended) Most kettles are 1500W and BOIL 1 liter in about 2 min. We only need about 70-80deg C. This might be a really good "off the shelf" way to go.

Thoughts?
Last edited by DVR on Sat, 06 Sep 2008, 14:47, edited 1 time in total.


So long and thanks for all the fish.

a4x4kiwi
Senior Member
Posts: 772
Joined: Thu, 03 Jan 2008, 19:04
Real Name: Malcolm Faed
Location: Australia
Contact:

Heater-- Demister

Post by a4x4kiwi » Sun, 07 Sep 2008, 02:48

Looks Good.

hopefully you can separate the thermostat from the circuit so it can switch the 12v side of a solid state relay for the HV element.

Mal.
Silicon is just sand with attitude.

Blog: http://malfunction.faed.name

rhills
Site Admin
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri, 25 Jul 2008, 01:57
Real Name: Rob Hills
Location: Waikiki, WA

Heater-- Demister

Post by rhills » Sun, 07 Sep 2008, 16:53

Hmmm, I wonder if it has a pump included, or if it relies on convection flow? If the latter, would convection flow be enough for effective use as a car heater or would one have to add a water pump as well? I suspect a water pump would be needed for maximum efficiency.

Cheers,
Rob Hills
AEVA Webmaster
2014 Mitsubishi Outlander Aspire PHEV
Jul 2014 - Mar 2019
Total Petrol: 646.6L
ODO: 47979
Av Consumption: 1.35 L/100km

User avatar
DVR
Groupie
Posts: 96
Joined: Sun, 22 Jun 2008, 23:01
Real Name: Shane
Location: Adelaide

Heater-- Demister

Post by DVR » Sun, 07 Sep 2008, 19:05

It has no pump. covection only. I rekon that's why they take 3 hours to bring an ICE up to temp. Still have to run a pump.
Just bought this, it cost $57 USD delivered
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 0045894709

I'll keep you posted
Image edit crap link wont work
hers a picture!!
Image
Last edited by DVR on Sun, 07 Sep 2008, 09:09, edited 1 time in total.


So long and thanks for all the fish.

Goombi
Senior Member
Posts: 532
Joined: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 17:59
Real Name: Eugen
Location: Gympie

Heater-- Demister

Post by Goombi » Mon, 15 Sep 2008, 02:36

If you still have the water heater element in the car and pipes in the engine compartment.. there is a simplest solution. Cheap Auto sell 12 volt hot water shower with water heater and pump for around 30$
All you need is a water tank and thermostat set to 85 deg C. All these cheap items are considered ideal for aproval inspection only-- not long term. This will give you hot water instantly not waiting 3 hours.
Oter option is my 150watt heater /demister that clears a car cabin in less then 5 min from steam. To have a succesful
EV --one has to sacrifice( without any excuses) all costly and power consuming comforts. Some combustion cars use up to 30% of power just to power the comforts. Air con, p/steer, 4 speeker stereo, power windows etc..Its nice to drive a car at 50 km/h with open window , and when it gets cold what is wrong with winter clothes- gloves and a beannie...Some adventure... Hmmm

Peter C in Canberra
Senior Member
Posts: 491
Joined: Sun, 27 Jul 2008, 04:05
Real Name: Peter Campbell
Location: Canberra

Heater-- Demister

Post by Peter C in Canberra » Mon, 15 Sep 2008, 21:22

For what it's worth I was uncomfortable with the idea of enclosing 144V getting hot next to my feet and also the various low power 12V gadgets didn't seem sufficient for Canberra's winter. I am considering a purchase of the larger Iota 90Amp DC/DC converter rather than the 45 Amp one that ZEVA sells in order to feed accessories plus, on occasions, a beefier 12V heater made by modifying two open wire type mains heater elements.
I noticed a comment earlier in this thread that leaving the traction battery floating is wrong. At the most recent Canberra meeting one of our members spoke on general electrical safety and was quite emphatic that the traction battery should not be connected to the chassis, either deliberately or inadvertently through the design of some component. His reasoning seemed sensible to me, though he conceded a suggestion that one person made that one reference the traction battery to the chassis through some megohms of resistance just to avoid having it float off to some high value.
Peter.
Daihatsu charade conversion 2009-18, iMiEV 2013-2019, Holden Volt 2018-present, on the ACT's 100% renewable electricity. Kona on order.

User avatar
Johny
Senior Member
Posts: 3729
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 16:26
Real Name: John Wright
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Heater-- Demister

Post by Johny » Mon, 15 Sep 2008, 21:35

Sick 'em Tuarn! Image

User avatar
acmotor
Senior Member
Posts: 3595
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2007, 03:30
Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

Heater-- Demister

Post by acmotor » Mon, 15 Sep 2008, 22:22

Well not quite, but I can't resist putting the alternative point of view. Image

Peter,
After a lifetime of dealing with electricity from DC to daylight and nV to kV, I am a firm believer that the (Australian et.al.) electrical requirement of grounding the neutral /negative / centre of supplies is the right one. If NCOP14 requires that you build to some electrical standard then it is very contradictory to suggest floating the traction battery.
It is fine to insulate wires and some electrical devices, but when it comes to equipment made of conductors (like vehicle bodies) it must be considered earth and connected to earth, protective earth (not terra firma that is) of any electrical supply associated with it. This way a fuse will blow / contactor trip or some other shutdown of the electrical supply. (earth leakage detector)

Washing machines, hot water systems, bore pumps etc. are all examples of the protective ground system.

You may think a floating system is safe, it was yesterday, I put my hand, you say, on the exposed battery terminals (that should not have been exposed under any electrical standard or NCOP14 anyway).
Today I try it and zapo, I didn't know something had shorted to ground, there was no warning ! NOT SAFE. Image

The big point for EV safety is a vehicle accident. You can guarantee that the traction system will short to ground somewhere and then the system is dangerous to touch ... without even a fuse blown !
You would be a lot better off to ground the system (I suggest at the centre of the battery pack) and break it up into <say 72V modules.
You can make a psuedo floating system a bit safer by monitoring ground current and initiating a shutdown, but a breakup should be part of this approach as well.

Even for vehicle maintenance... +72V, gnd , -72 can be handled (it will bite a wet hand but not kill)....
144V with unkown insulation cannot be handled unless you have BLIND faith in your floating system.
The +-72 system will blow a fuse if a fault occurs. This is more likely to make it safe and far more a known quantity.
Each battery box / location should have a fuse such that ANY or MANY shorts to ground make the system safer not MORE dangerous.

Floating the traction battery system of an EV is technically wrong and mostly historical because of DC motors (they get wet) and the failure of builders to break up the battery pack to safe working voltages via switches or contactors. Early packs were <72V anyway.

I am not going to repeat myself anymore here, check out other posts on this forum.

Image
iMiEV MY12     105,131km in pure Electric and loving it !

drowe67
Groupie
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri, 18 Apr 2008, 20:14
Real Name: David Rowe
Location: Adelaide
Contact:

Heater-- Demister

Post by drowe67 » Mon, 15 Sep 2008, 22:52

acmotor I find this quite interesting and would like to continue the discussion (if not in this thread then perhaps in another).

So with a washing machine if the active or nuetral wire comes loose it touches the chassis, a current flows thru to earth and my house breaker trips. OK that makes sense and seems like a good thing.

How about this scenario. One end (or the centre) of the traction pack is connected to the chassis. I touch the chassis while standing on wet ground. Do I get a zap?

I ask as this actually happened to me the other day.....and I can't quite figure why I got a zap if the whole car is "isolated" from ground by the tyres.

Thanks,

David
Last edited by drowe67 on Mon, 15 Sep 2008, 13:09, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
acmotor
Senior Member
Posts: 3595
Joined: Thu, 26 Apr 2007, 03:30
Real Name: Tuarn
Location: Perth,Australia

Heater-- Demister

Post by acmotor » Mon, 15 Sep 2008, 23:20

David,
Yes, earth leakage detectors are good, but only if the neutral is connected to protective earth as it is required to be under electrical standards. Check your meter box neutral - earth link. All for obvious good reasons. Just imagine if your incoming 240V were isolated from earth.... and a supply fault occurs that puts 11kV between your 240V supply and earth. No fuses would blow, just you or your appliances.

Your scenario...
Don't confuse earth (terra firma) and the vehicle chassis. There is no need for an earth stake or connection to earth (except when charging off the mains via the normal earth pin).

If you touch the chassis while standing on the ground... no zap.
Is this why people think they have to isolate the traction battery ?????
Think of electrical circuits. You will get the idea.

Here, earth and ground are used as verbs in electrical terms.
to earth a circuit
to ground a circuit

To connect the battery pack to the vehicle chassis (as the 12V system is) is to ground or earth it as the chassis is the local common point.

The vehicle tyres are not insulators anyway. The have graphite added during manufacture to allow disipation of electrostatic charge that builds up when a vehicle is driven through the air. It is not perfect as dry or painted road surfaces are insulators. So electrostatic shocks still occur. The usual 'click'.

The vehicle you mention, was it on charge ? was its chassis connected to mains earth as required ? Was the mains earth present at the 3 pin plug. The event should not have happened and you should investigate. Image
iMiEV MY12     105,131km in pure Electric and loving it !

drowe67
Groupie
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri, 18 Apr 2008, 20:14
Real Name: David Rowe
Location: Adelaide
Contact:

Heater-- Demister

Post by drowe67 » Tue, 16 Sep 2008, 00:00

acmotor wrote: David,
If you touch the chassis while standing on the ground... no zap.
Is this why people think they have to isolate the traction battery ?????
This is the bit that has me confused - and yes I think it is why some people like isolated traction packs. Read a post (Sep 8) on the EVDL list re a guy with a grounded Kelly controller who gets zaps to dry ground - has to insulate every exposed nut etc.

Yes I had a ground fault (loose brush clip in the motor) that meant my pack was connected via a few hundred ohms to B+. I found out via the common way - touching a battery terminal while leaning against the chassis.

I also received a zap when I touched an exposed bolt on the chassis while standing on wet ground. Not sure how repeatable this was, I wasn't game to try again! The car wasn't on charge, just sitting there. I wasn't a static type click, this was more like a traction pack zap. I am confused as I always though current flows in a loop. Anyway I guess it's possible there was another factor at play, maybe a tool or another wire closing the circuit. It was a few weeks ago now, and it gave me the incentive to track down the path to the chassis and remove it.

Cheers,

David




Goombi
Senior Member
Posts: 532
Joined: Sun, 10 Aug 2008, 17:59
Real Name: Eugen
Location: Gympie

Heater-- Demister

Post by Goombi » Tue, 16 Sep 2008, 00:24

12 volt service battery has to be earthed , as it is the second polarity Black to chasis and red to instruments etc. Where is te confussion?
Connect your main power batteries where they belong. if you getting shock you have a bad connection or your high power attached to some instruments and earth leaking.. Make sure you have all high voltage parts insulated. Or something is leaking dc-dc? Controller? motor? in line fuses? Connector? bad cable.
If this theory is not correct please inform where i was wrong

Is your heater connected to high power?

Post Reply