E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Open for any sort of non-technical discussion regarding EVs
Post Reply
aegidius
Groupie
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun, 02 May 2010, 02:23
Real Name: Giles Puckett
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by aegidius » Tue, 04 Jul 2017, 20:48

Has anyone got rego on a motorbike conversion recently?

Looked into the rego aspect for EV bikes a couple of years ago (I am in Qld). Seemed that there is no well defined process to get engineers approval for a modification like there is for cars (NCOP14). Basically anything you do to a bike makes it an ICV, and there are open-ended costs and time spent in getting it registered. Rego is a matter of if not when.

This put me off entirely. I'd love to hear if this situation has changed.

Converting an already registered bike is chancy (I thought of that too) If you hit anything, you have an illegally modified vehicle, and insurance won't pay.

Technical hurdles mainly revolve round space for batteries, IMHO. Nice to hear about those newer water-cooled Motenergy motors, I was looking at the double sided ME0913 (I think) at the time. Being able to have a gearbox would be nice too, but again it's the space issue.
Giles.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3084
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by Richo » Wed, 05 Jul 2017, 20:24

Interesting.
Never noticed that line before in the NCOP14.
NCOP14 wrote:These guidelines do not apply to ADR category L-group vehicles and motor cycles.
Last edited by Richo on Wed, 05 Jul 2017, 10:24, edited 1 time in total.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3084
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by Richo » Wed, 05 Jul 2017, 20:36

NCOP13 LV1 page 7 says:
NCOP13 wrote:The following modifications are not covered under Code LV1:
Fitting an electric motor to any motorcycle or ADR category L-group vehicle
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3084
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by Richo » Wed, 05 Jul 2017, 20:48

The WA DOT change of vehicle details form says:
DoT wrote:If the engine change is not a like-for-like replacement and the
engine configuration has changed (i.e. different number of
cylinders, power rating, engine make/model/type, engine capacity
or fuel type), then a vehicle modification approval must be sought
from DoT.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3084
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by Richo » Wed, 05 Jul 2017, 21:05

That does seem to be a loop hole in the paperwork at least.
As far as I know no one has a problem registering a motorbike conversion.
As for QLD I don't know.

Given how little there is for the ADR's for a motorbike I would think it's more open slather Image
Most of it comes down to common sense and safety.
There are DoT registered engineers for this.

But like you say it is a gamble.

Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

User avatar
jonescg
Senior Member
Posts: 1997
Joined: Thu, 21 Jan 2010, 23:05
Real Name: Chris Jones
Location: Perth, WA.

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by jonescg » Wed, 05 Jul 2017, 22:05

The DoT website in WA was updated a year or two ago and it's very helpful for this sort of stuff.
AEVA National Secretary, WA branch vice-chair

aegidius
Groupie
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun, 02 May 2010, 02:23
Real Name: Giles Puckett
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by aegidius » Thu, 06 Jul 2017, 14:19

All well and good if you live in WA... when I spoke to engineers who had approved car conversions, and also their QLD Transport counterparts, there was much head scratching. Nobody seemed to have a better answer than "build it first and we'll see what happens", which is not on when you're talking about $10-12k for a decent donor bike and decent batteries. I imagined that if you came up the same weight or lighter, and with less power, you would be OK, but my confidence was not returned.
Giles.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3084
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by Richo » Thu, 06 Jul 2017, 20:52

So the "normal" process for a car conversion is to fill out an application to modify form. (Form F1854 CFD)
It is generic for "light vehicles" under 4.5T.
It doesn't say anywhere it doesn't include motorbikes.

The form is supposed to be filled out and submitted BEFORE starting.
So the risk is the donor vehicle cost.

After that ADR's apply and as a GUIDE the NCOP series of documents.
Now looking through the ADR's there is little subject matter on engine side other than emission/pollution aspect.

Like I said open slather with common sense and safety thrown in.

As for the documents I suspect that these will have to be updated to include provisions for Motorbikes.
Doesn't help you now tho...

On the plus side it usually comes down to the guy doing the inspection.
And he'll probably be pretty happy seeing something different.
So as long as it's rideable, brakes and doesn't electrocute him pretty good odds on getting it registered.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3084
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by Richo » Thu, 06 Jul 2017, 20:58

aegidius wrote:I imagined that if you came up the same weight or lighter, and with less power, you would be OK...


One of the NCOP suggests +/-20% power variation.
BUT it does say continuous...
Image

Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3084
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by Richo » Thu, 06 Jul 2017, 21:32

NCOP14 wrote:These guidelines do not apply to ADR category L-group vehicles and motor cycles.
Yeah pretty pointless complying to 10/20G impact load on the battery box.
So the battery box survives a crash but the bike and rider are now a can of baked beans. Image

Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

User avatar
Jeff Owen
Groupie
Posts: 145
Joined: Thu, 13 Nov 2008, 15:53
Real Name: Jeff Owen
Location: Brisbane

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by Jeff Owen » Thu, 06 Jul 2017, 22:17

Giles
Earl Gilcrest (0417229723) is a Brisbane engineer that has undertaken approval of several motorbike conversions in Queensland. I suggest you talk to him to find out what is required.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3084
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by Richo » Fri, 07 Jul 2017, 20:19

Excellent - someone always has the answer. Image

I'd be interested, as with others, what he has to say.
Even if it just general advice.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3084
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by Richo » Fri, 07 Jul 2017, 20:22

aegidius wrote:... I was looking at the double sided ME0913 (I think) at the time.


Double sided Image
What would be the reason for this?
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

aegidius
Groupie
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun, 02 May 2010, 02:23
Real Name: Giles Puckett
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by aegidius » Fri, 07 Jul 2017, 21:36

It's a version of an earlier motor (can't recall the number, sorry) which has twice the number of windings, one set on each side of the rotor magnets. They are axial flux motors, so the magnets are on a disc rotor. Not sure if the later motors follow this pattern though, but judging by the low winding resistance figures, they probably do (two windings in parallel)

EDIT: the single sided version is the ME0709. You can see the parallel connection of the windings in this picture of the ME0913 motor: http://kellycontroller.com/mars-0913ete ... p-874.html


Edited to make the link clickable
Last edited by rhills on Fri, 07 Jul 2017, 12:42, edited 1 time in total.
Giles.

aegidius
Groupie
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun, 02 May 2010, 02:23
Real Name: Giles Puckett
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by aegidius » Fri, 07 Jul 2017, 22:08

Richo wrote:
I'd be interested, as with others, what he has to say.
Even if it just general advice.


OK, I just spoke to Earl and he was very helpful.
He requires a description of the bike (model/year) and list of major components used for the conversion. Based on inspections along the way, he prepares a report for Qld Transport with photos, weights and so on. They will issue the approval in a couple of weeks from there (he can't just put a plate on like they do for a car conversion). There is no need for an application to modify a vehicle to QT first, as there was in prior years. A bike conversion is NOT an ICV (as I was advised years ago)

His advice is mechanical commonsense:
- no cutting of frames or structural bits
- no modifying of brakes, forks or suspension
- keep weight under the original, and weight distribution similar
- comply with NCOPxx requirements for electrical side of conversion

His costs run to $700-800 if all goes well.
Giles.

User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3084
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by Richo » Wed, 12 Jul 2017, 20:19

Interesting.
Sounds promising.

Still not clear cut like a car conversion.
I guess there isn't enough of them to justify the paperwork updates.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way! Blasphemy is a swear word. Magnetic North is a south Pole.

aegidius
Groupie
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun, 02 May 2010, 02:23
Real Name: Giles Puckett
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by aegidius » Wed, 26 Jul 2017, 01:17

I'm thinking an ME1616 motor (watercooled, 20kW) and 72 or 84V worth of NCM cells, if I can fit them into the frame (big if). Anyone managed to snag these recently, and at what price? I notice EVPower is advertising 72Ah versions available.
Giles.

User avatar
jonescg
Senior Member
Posts: 1997
Joined: Thu, 21 Jan 2010, 23:05
Real Name: Chris Jones
Location: Perth, WA.

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by jonescg » Wed, 26 Jul 2017, 06:05

You might find smaller capacity cells are easier to work with. Sometimes you can get lucky, but often the numbers don't work out for single 25 Ah cells. It might be that 20 Ah would fit perfectly. So using multiples of 5 Ah cells is practical in that instance.
AEVA National Secretary, WA branch vice-chair

aegidius
Groupie
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun, 02 May 2010, 02:23
Real Name: Giles Puckett
Location: Brisbane
Contact:

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by aegidius » Wed, 26 Jul 2017, 16:45

Any problems paralleling strings of cells in practice? I can imagine all sorts of problems with unbalanced strings trying to charge each other - are protection diodes or other forms of isolation used?
Giles.

User avatar
jonescg
Senior Member
Posts: 1997
Joined: Thu, 21 Jan 2010, 23:05
Real Name: Chris Jones
Location: Perth, WA.

E-motorbike conversion and rego issues

Post by jonescg » Wed, 26 Jul 2017, 16:59

aegidius wrote: Any problems paralleling strings of cells in practice? I can imagine all sorts of problems with unbalanced strings trying to charge each other - are protection diodes or other forms of isolation used?


Not if the cells are paralleled first. And assuming your cells have been vetted for self-discharge and internal resistance, they will parallel up just fine.
AEVA National Secretary, WA branch vice-chair

Post Reply