I compared 26 vehicles

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TechGuy
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Post by TechGuy » Sun, 27 Dec 2015, 13:26

Hi guys, I hope you don't mind me posting a link to a website I made. I don't make any money from it and there are no ads (I do a lot of hobby websites).

http://ElectricTransport.com.au
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Gabz
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Post by Gabz » Sun, 27 Dec 2015, 23:36

battery capacity is measured in kWh so is energy so used kWh not kW you talk kW is you want a size of things a 50kW motor or a 3kW charger.
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TechGuy
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Post by TechGuy » Mon, 28 Dec 2015, 00:10

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reecho
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Post by reecho » Mon, 28 Dec 2015, 01:41

Vehicle pricing is all over the show.

It should be the current retail pricing without on road costs, as they vary from state to state.

The BMW i3 REX is $69,990 for instance....

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4Springs
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Post by 4Springs » Mon, 28 Dec 2015, 02:05

Cool!

You have a few extra apostrophes:
The abbreviation for kilometres is "km". You have "km's".
The plural of EV is "EVs". You have "EV's".
The plural of kWh is "kWhs". You have "kWh's".

In the second Note down the bottom you probably mean "realistic" rather than "realist". And "manufacturer's".

Would you guess that I spell check things for a job?

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dgh853
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Post by dgh853 » Mon, 28 Dec 2015, 03:08

A few suggestions to make the calculations more accurate ...

Some of the costs per 100km don't reflect real world usage or even official fuel/electricity usage.

For example the Tesla and Outlander PHEV have the same energy cost per 100km . This might be true if you drive on electric only but you have the PHEV using only 1.8kW electricity and 2.3L of fuel. This wouldn't get the PHEV much past 25km let alone 100km.

The fuel tank on the PHEV is only 45L.

For actual range you should use the USA EPA range converted to kWh/km as that's more like real world driving efficiency than the fanciful figures published by Nissan or Mitsubishi for their electrics. You can then update the kWh used per 100km which are not accurate e.g. Leaf and imiev and PHEV would be higher, Tesla lower etc.

Also I'd suggest setting the default electricity and fuel costs to current fuel prices and off-peak electricity. Fuel is $1.20 and off-peak electricity is 10-12 cents per kWh which cuts most people would take advantage of that. Some pay a flat rate of 20 odd cents but then we're ignoring the free charging you can get at public charging stations, work, family of friends which reduces the cost as well.
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mikedufty
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Post by mikedufty » Mon, 28 Dec 2015, 03:53

Power costs vary a lot by state.

It is 23.3663c/kwH plus GST in WA, and that's with a hefty government subsidy.
4.5618c extra for greenpower.

Synergy don't believe in rounding.

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reecho
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Post by reecho » Mon, 28 Dec 2015, 16:17

Actually it's 25.7029c per Kwh in Perth for A1 tariff...

And 47.1834c service charge per day..... Image

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Post by TechGuy » Mon, 28 Dec 2015, 17:05

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Gabz
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Post by Gabz » Mon, 28 Dec 2015, 17:28

reecho wrote: Actually it's 25.7029c per Kwh in Perth for A1 tariff...

And 47.1834c service charge per day..... Image


An the eastern states are deregulated so it depends on 1000's of different factors my current price 23.79 ¢/kwh including daily service charge and greenpower. my parents is 26.54 ¢/kwh same inclusions.

so like petrol prices you can only use the average price and go from there.
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dgh853
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Post by dgh853 » Mon, 28 Dec 2015, 19:03

Let's not get hung up on whether the electricity tariff is 25.5 or 25.6 cents per kWh. I just wanted to point out that off-peak tariffs will cut your electricity cost in half. Not everyone can take advantage of that eg. renters (as they can't add a dedicated off-peak circuit, although they could switch to Time Of Use) but it is worth a note saying that off-peak and free charging provide the opportunity to cut your electricity costs by more than 50% over the default rates.

The PHEV per 100km rates are not accurate unless you actually drive 100km. Given the claimed 52km electric only range of the PHEV (it's more like 40km) then the 48km is fuel only and that's at 8-10L per 100k (the petrol Outlander claims 7.5L). So to do 100km you'd need at least 10kWh of electricity (not all of the 12kWh capacity can be used) and roughly 3.5L of petrol. Don't know how Drive.com.au or Mitsubishi got their figures but I bet they didn't drive 100km, they drove maybe 50 or 60km and extrapolated to 100km which is wrong when your battery pack is empty.

Don't mean to bag the PHEV - I actually own one and they are very good with Prius like fuel consumption (excluding electricity) - but no PHEV will ever use just 1.8kWh and 2.3L to do 100km unless they are driving from Mt Everest to the sea!
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Post by TechGuy » Mon, 28 Dec 2015, 20:09

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Post by dgh853 » Tue, 29 Dec 2015, 00:30

I'm trying to point out that whatever PHEV fuel economy figure you use - 1.8l,2.3l, 3.0l per 100km - relies on you using the entire battery pack ie. 10-12kWh. You can't assume that the only 1/8 of the battery pack was used because the theoretical range might be 800km.

So if you stick with 3.0l per 100km you need to acknowledge that 10-12kWh are being used up to get that low fuel economy figure over 100km. If a driver drives the car 100km and recharges fully then that is the economy figure they can achieve. If they drive 800km the economy will be much closer to 7.5L which us what the petrol only Outlander with the same engine offers. If the person drives only 30km between recharges then they will potentially never use any petrol at all (although the PHEV forces you to add 15 litres of fuel every 3 months to stop the fuel going off). Your figure of 3-4L per 100km is probably right for the average PHEV owner but requires the recognition of a lot more electricity consumption for each 100km to be accurate.

The reason I feel strongly about this is because putting unrealistic fuel economy figures on electrics or PHEV's causes a lot of negative publicity for EVs.
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TechGuy
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Post by TechGuy » Tue, 29 Dec 2015, 16:16

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Post by dgh853 » Tue, 29 Dec 2015, 17:22

"How sure are you that you use 12kW for a 100km trip?"

Because the PHEV will use electricity before it uses petrol. So somewhere between 30km and 50km into a trip the battery will run flat and the car will act like a regular hybrid and use fuel to power it (and like other hybrids it can recharge the battery to gain energy back on downhills and under braking).

A Plug In Hybrid EV has a battery pack that can be charged from an electricity supply. This makes it different from a regular hybrid where all the energy comes from the gas tank.

Have a Google about the difference between hybrids and plugin hybrids. There are also differences between plug in hybrids eg Volt and Outlander, whereby the Volt gas engine simply charges the battery and the Outlander can act in multiple modes ie. battery power only, gas engine recharging the battery and parallel (where both electric motors and gas engine drive the car.

I don't think you need to change the fuel use figures for the regular hybrids as all their power comes from petrol.


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TechGuy
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Post by TechGuy » Tue, 29 Dec 2015, 18:51

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4Springs
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Post by 4Springs » Thu, 31 Dec 2015, 00:57

TechGuy wrote: What do you think about using a 40km trip as the test range for PHEVs rather than 100km? My reasoning is that the Australian average driver commute is a 38km return trip so it is a fairer metric [although a 100km trip is a more even number and standardised measurement].

PHEVs are difficult. They are almost like two separate vehicles. You can drive an Outlander 100km on battery alone, as long as you stop and charge a couple of times along the way! You can also drive it 100km on petrol only. So you could have two rows, one for Outlander BEV and one for Outlander Hybrid.
In my experience, Outlander BEV would be about 21kWh/100km.
Outlander Hybrid would be about 7L/100km.
These are based on experience, having owned an Outlander for about two weeks! You could do a similar exercise for the Holden Volt, or presumably any other PHEV.

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Post by TechGuy » Thu, 31 Dec 2015, 13:37

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evric
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Post by evric » Thu, 31 Dec 2015, 14:21

Hi,
I have driven the Outlander PHEV in real life conditions and after a full charge then driving it around the Adelaide plains and then Adelaide hills for a total of 100Km, I got just over 7L/100km.
I did this each day over a about a week and got the same figures each day.
Even though I only get the first 52km in EV mode, I know someone who regularly gets over 70km.
If you are driving around on flat ground all the time, I would expect figures of around 3L/100km.
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4Springs
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Post by 4Springs » Thu, 31 Dec 2015, 15:12

TechGuy wrote: When you say "Outlander Hybrid would be about 7L/100km" you mean over long distances (i.e. more than 200km, 300km, etc.) right?

If you were just going 80km to 100km the battery would cover half the trip so your fuel use would only be 3L/100km. That seems to be the consensus with a test drive from a drive.com.au review.
Yes correct - but only if you had a full battery to start with. If you park somewhere without the ability to charge then the battery will be empty at the start of the trip, and so 7L/100 km would apply to a trip of any length.
Some people will never plug their Outlander in to charge it up. This is how the Mitsubishi dealer ran it - they charged the battery by running the petrol motor (you can press a button to charge up the battery this way).
Other people will (almost) never put petrol into it - they will only use it for short trips running purely on electricity.
Most people will use both EV mode and petrol mode, and thus if you can (somehow) design the table to reflect this, people can estimate how it will work for their particular circumstances. I don't actually have a suggestion on how to do this, just commenting in general!

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Post by TechGuy » Thu, 31 Dec 2015, 15:59

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Post by weber » Thu, 07 Jan 2016, 15:24

4Springs wrote:The plural of kWh is "kWhs".

The plural of "kWh" is still "kWh". "kWhs" would be kilowatt hour seconds.
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