Range extender Efficiency Study

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marty11
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Range extender Efficiency Study

Post by marty11 »

There is a study commencing on making the most efficient range extender for EV's.

”Electric vehicles are now an established technology, and available from many major vehicle manufacturers. They are of particular value in urban environments, and are supported by a growing infrastructure of charging points.”

“However, their perceived lack of range is holding back market penetration for travellers who make long journeys. This is where Range Extenders can make a major contribution.”

“Existing techniques consist of little more than a traditionally powered motor that is used to recharge the vehicle’s primary drive battery pack.”

EV Range Extender Study for Efficiency

Could be interesting depending on what they come up with.

There will be lots of times when a EV with around 100 kms of range isnt enough. So I bought a Volt, but would be happy to have a similar range, but a more efficient range extender when required. Ideally a lighter range extender, less bulk, allowing slightly more battery than the 16kwh Volt battery.

Many customers will have different needs, but either way, a more efficient range extender is a good idea, IMHO.

More charging stations everywhere will come eventually though, allowing less need for a long distance range extended EV trip, but within Australia, at this point in time, range extending might be more practical than waiting an indeterminate time for a prolific fast charging network to appear. (For those that mainly wish to use one EV for all their travel)
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acmotor
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Range extender Efficiency Study

Post by acmotor »

Good to see a study on this from a consumer point of view. Image

I have long held the view that the name range extenter is part of the problem in itself.
The onboard hybrid system does not actually 'extend' on the range of the potential EV range of the vehicle. It robs part of the EV range by having to lug the ICE equipment around all the time and then in the case of the volt at least, dissallows acccess to the full battery pack so it can maintain vehicle performance.
Consider maybe 50km range for the EREV in EV mode or for similar money and weight with a more substantial battery pack it could have been 200km range of pure EV. Still not enough for some, but an actual step forward for EVs.

The volt system serves a purpose at this stage (clearly marty is a happy camper and streets ahead of ancient ICEs) but I do feel that it leads us in the wrong direction.
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Post by Gabz »

acmotor wrote:The volt system serves a purpose at this stage (clearly marty is a happy camper and streets ahead of ancient ICEs) but I do feel that it leads us in the wrong direction.
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hate to see your opinion of the Toyota hybrid system or the Mercedes Benz diesel electric
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Range extender Efficiency Study

Post by marty11 »

ac motor Image

Yes , I can see that lugging the generator around is something to be considered, but why then do I see posts from pure EV's about Gen Sets being carried around in trailers.

I see range anxiety among BEV owners on this and lots of other forums.

I just did 600 kms, and only 85 kms was on EV mode. As there arent enough charging stations along the way, I could not have done the trip unless I used an ICE car all the way! Rather the Volt !

The range extender doesn't use all the battery, nor does it prevent using a lot of it. The software in the Volt can let you choose to use the range extender to generate electricity on highways...and hold the battery level steady.. so in towns, where EV battery is better used, you can glide efficiently and silently with the range extender off. Not a bad thing? You just flick the switch while you are driving..

Tesla only recommends using 85% of its battery, (You can use more , but they recommend, for longevity of battery, you do not use more than 85%)

The Volt maintains a SOC minimum around 30% or so, and there has been minimal loss of battery recorded on 3 year old Volts. So maybe thats less to do with the Range Extender side of things (although no doubt the range extender uses "Some" of the battery), but good housekeeping on the battery management side.

So 85 kms in the Volt on ev a few days ago.

How much more battery would it take to get to 200km range? And if i had 200 kms range,and did the same 600 km trip, would I then have a charger to be able to "re-charge quickly" twice during that trip?

The range extender does not have to be a problem, it can be a solution.

I see posts about which type of gen set to buy etc . That is from members looking to find a solution to Range Anxiety.

Later, when Charging Stations are commonplace, and 200 km BEV's are also commonplace, I sure will look at one.. heck I had a Tesla on order when I thought they were going to go for $85000 in Australia (just got my deposit back)

I am betting that a lot of Imiev owners would bolt on an aftermarket range extender in a jiffy if they had one available.

The new BMW i3 is available as a BEV or with a motorcycle REX extender.

You can also argue that carrying around extra battery weight is a waste if you are only doing short trips around town, say 10-20 kms. Why have a larger battery pack than that? Answer is because you may need more range.

You can say why convert , when production EV's are available.. I think converters are fantastic my self.. love the projects I see..

Perhaps there is room for Converts, production BEV's, and EREV's all on this forum. United, all owners can tackle various issues , like charging infrastructure, for a better driving EV experience for all ev users.

It will take some time for BEV production cars to reach 200 km range.. I believe GM are working on one now.. .so maybe within 3 years - 5 ?
At that time or slightly later, people converting BEV's from ICe, will also be able to buy 200km range battery packs.. and kits that are easier on the pocket.

Then there will be the initial price of 200 km range BEV's (See what happened to the Tesla original stated price? )

So, as a fill in-- I would rather have the flexibility of a range extended EV at present which fulfills my needs. .as well as 50,000 other Volt owners (Not just Marty is a happy camper Image )

The 50 km range you mentioned is a little low. 75kms calculated on my Volt now. 85 kms a couple days ago. Peak winter in snow area 50kms.

As for "similar money and weight" to get me up to 200 km.   No.

I get you have no love for EREV.

I love em all ! BEV, EREV,

In the states, lots of peole have a Volt and a EV Spark, or a Tesla and a Volt , or a Nissan LEaf as well as a Volt, so one can go further and the other one round town / to and from work.   

Lots of people have a Chevy Volt but want to switch to a BEV when a 200 km range one comes out. Heres 2.

200 km Range GM + TEsla , for $30,000

Range extenders, will fill a Void until more of the public can switch over to "your correct direction"

But even at 200 km range, some will still want a range extender.

Personally, I wanted a BEV, wanted one converted, but am happy at this point as is.

Embrace the present ev technology, and all the available options, and look forward to the EV future . .it is a nice one.
Last edited by marty11 on Sun, 01 Dec 2013, 21:31, edited 1 time in total.
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acmotor
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Range extender Efficiency Study

Post by acmotor »

Wow, sorry if that stirred you up Marty ! Image

It is a good discussion to have. There is no right or wrong, just preference and perhaps a frustration that what you want in a vehicle isn't offered....yet.

I was pleased to see that you get the point though.... EREV suits some users given the present state of the EV technology. I hope I was saying that, whilst expressing the concern that the very approach of not offering the choice of volt in hybrid or 'best EV variation' i.e. pure EV by Chevy was the manufacturer telling the public what they wanted. A very US car market approach.

You do know that there are far more fuel efficient and cheaper vehicles than a volt if you are a regular 600km trip user.

BEV owners thinking of range extending gen sets on trailers ? Yep. But at least they can unhitch the trailer when they don't plan a long trip rather than lugging the ICE around all the time as in an EREV.
Not trying to point score here, just making the observation.
Can the volt (fully)recharge its battery from the ICE ? News to me. Wouldn't that be against the very princple of C02 reduction ? (10kW PV charging is in your signature ?) Image

All that aside, I did congradulate you for the (EV part) of your purchase. Good on you. (nice car actually) Image   I'm sorry if my wishes for the EV future don't include hybrids. Image

Yep, We are all part of an evolving technology. Image
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Range extender Efficiency Study

Post by Richo »

A $604,000 study grant Image
UK Uni wrote:Artificial intelligence will be explored to determine how it can be used to manage the range extender
Ok crazy students with crazy idea's.
Will it help if I tell them the answer now and save half the money?
A dumbass micro could do it Image
Save the AI for the gun bearing robots Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Range extender Efficiency Study

Post by offgridQLD »

A 200km range ev isn't anything special or out of reach. I regularly do over 100km with 20 - 30% of my battery pack remaining. 16kwh battery. Double that for 32kw and you have your 200km range (ok you would loose range with the extra 150kg or so of battery but we can already do over 100km from the 16kwh so I'm sure it would be around the 200km with 80% DOD.

Thinking about it more I'm not that keen on the generator trailer (although I have discussed it) I prefer just to use our national power grid and charge the car that way.The costs involved even building your own range trailer are not worth it.

Also the other example use a big battery. Like you said why carry around a huge battery that you only use the capacity now and then and why not just take a very efficient ICE car for the odd long trip as long trips really do only make a very small portion of peoples needs.

I could purchase the Imiev and a new TDI or Petrol car for less than most hybrids and they would both do a better job in there field than the jack of all hybrid.

Most working people only get 4 weeks holiday a year ( that's 4 weeks out of 52 when where you can drive cars long distances. Ok there are the weekends but most people don't have the time to go on long trips on the weekends and if they get away its usually only 100km or perhaps 200km from there home. Not everyone falls into this mold but it would be the largest portion of people.

Why would you drive to say Sydney from Say Brisbane when you can fly that kind of distance now for less than the cost of fuel and be there in just over 1hr.

Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Mon, 02 Dec 2013, 11:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by jonescg »

Or take the train. I really wish I could still take the train to Albany, Pemberton or Geraldton. Well, maybe not Gero, but it'd be nice to have the option.

I'm all for bigger batteries. Even if you don't use all of it most of the time, you just charge less frequently. If I have to drive for longer than 8 hours in the day, I'd really prefer to take a train.

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Post by Simon »

It will be interesting to see how BMW's i3 fares with the Range extender being an optional extra.
From an early review it sounds like the performance is compromised with the battery depleted and running on the ICE and then there is the tiny fuel tank too!
It's certainly no Volt, more of an EV with training wheels. Image

Would be nice to have a Tesla model S. No range extender needed with 85Kwh of batteries onboard! Image I would only need to endure the ordeal of finding the switch on the garage wall and plugging in every 3-4weeks! Image
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Post by acmotor »

Hey marty, remember we are all just jealous of your volt. Image
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Post by Richo »

offgridQLD wrote: Thinking about it more I'm not that keen on the generator trailer (although I have discussed it) I prefer just to use our national power grid and charge the car that way.The costs involved even building your own range trailer are not worth it.


What about if you could just go down to Budget rentals or the like and pick one up for the day or the weekend?

I see our local breakdown service provider already has a gen trailer for ev's.

I still see this as a more practical solution that ev owners having a trailer sitting around for 50weeks a year.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Post by Gabz »

If you need to go long distance just hire a car ?

If you regularly go a longish distance, you can purchase and install a EVSE for less than a trailer would be to make.

I personally don't enjoy driving an i-miev at 110km of the freeway without cruise control. so I still take the ICE for longer trips anyway.
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Post by offgridQLD »

Richo wrote:What about if you could just go down to Budget rentals or the like and pick one up for the day or the weekend?


I can't imagine the cost to hire the generator trailer and then pay the aditional cost to fuel it would be competatve to just driving a eficiant 5lt 100km freeway consumption ice car.

Let's say you need it for a week to drive 1000km trip from Brisbane to Sydney.

Let's say you take your ice car 5lt 100km total return distance 2000km.100lt of fuel consimed at $1.40lt = $140.

Now if you were to take you ev and hire the trailer one day going down and one day coming back. What would you expect to pay to hire the trailer. I can't see it being any less than $50 day for it to be a viable investment for the hire company. So that's $100 return Hire cost.Then you need to pay for the fuel to power it. at a guess it would consume 4 or 5 Lt for every 100km of charge range. So now we are looking at $140 in fuel and $100 hire total $240 vs $140 to take the ice car.not to mention all the compromises in towing a trailer, fueling a generator and some how charging and driving at the same time.

Get a mate to drop you at the airport in your ev and be done with it Image

Or if your real keen to drive a ev a 80kw battery and a fast charge or two along the way is another option.
Kurt
Last edited by offgridQLD on Tue, 03 Dec 2013, 10:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by chris »

Is it possible to use a dc to dc converter so as to use a 12v battery as a range extender? Ie. only cary the extra battery when needed.
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Post by Johny »

chris wrote: Is it possible to use a dc to dc converter so as to use a 12v battery as a range extender? Ie. only cary the extra battery when needed.
Damn I wish this system would warn you if you try to close the browser - anyway - to enter it all again.

The answer is yes - but...
Assuming 150Wh/km, 1kw/hr takes you 6 km.
So to get 6 additional km of range from a lead acid (assuming) battery you would need:
1000/12 = 83.33 AH
DC-DC at 85% efficiency -> close to 100 AH.
Taking Peukart into account -> 200AH

A 12V 200AH lead acid deep cycle weighs around 65kg.
Add the DC-DC - say around 70kg.

The battery would cost $350 - don't know where you'ld get a 3kW 12V to 150 VDC or 350 VDC converter - probably hack a 240 VAC inverter.

So 70kg for 6km.

And the DC-DC probably wouldn't have enough grunt (that's a technical term) to actually move the vehicle more than 20km/hr - just an assumption.

70kg of LiFePO4 would take you 40km.
Be cheaper to get a tow - or just be careful.
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Post by bga »

jonescg wrote: Or take the train. I really wish I could still take the train to Albany, Pemberton or Geraldton. Well, maybe not Gero, but it'd be nice to have the option.
Somebody else does the drivingImage.

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