G2 Prius Plug in Purchased....

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Gabz
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G2 Prius Plug in Purchased....

Post by Gabz » Sat, 23 Nov 2013, 00:55

http://nilco2.com.au/about-us.html
there is a phone number give it a ring or sms message

otherwise chase the parent company AMR HOMEPORT PTY LTD

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G2 Prius Plug in Purchased....

Post by Johny » Sat, 23 Nov 2013, 01:30

Gabz wrote: http://nilco2.com.au/about-us.html
there is a phone number give it a ring or sms message

otherwise chase the parent company AMR HOMEPORT PTY LTD
They are a recreational charter company in Mackay - wow!
http://www.manta.com/ic/mvtrk7t/au/amr-homeport-pty-ltd

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G2 Prius Plug in Purchased....

Post by Johny » Sat, 23 Nov 2013, 01:34

...who's parent company is:

Waverton Nominees Proprietary Limited
2 Durham Road
Lambton, NSW     2299, Australia

Est 1976.

Just guessing but probably a trust type setup. Not helpful.

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G2 Prius Plug in Purchased....

Post by Johny » Sat, 23 Nov 2013, 01:50

It looks like this kit has been discussed here before:
viewtopic.php?title=plugin-conversion-k ... kit&t=2450

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G2 Prius Plug in Purchased....

Post by 85turbo » Sat, 23 Nov 2013, 19:09

thanks for the info guys..

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Post by 85turbo » Wed, 27 Nov 2013, 02:59

i emailed them directly, instead of using the form on the web page.
that was days ago, still no response.

from the data on the SD card, i can see that most of the cells are very low on capacity. almost to the point that all of the will need replacing sooner rather than later.

10h13m0s     0     52.8     0     0     3.3     3.3     3.3     3.3     3.31     3.31     3.3     3.31     3.29     3.3     3.3     3.28     3.28     3.3     3.28     3.32     25     25     24     25                                                                                
10h13m10s     222     48.9     14.3     74.2     3.12     3.16     3.16     3.18     2.91     3.18     3.13     3.15     2.92     3.08     3.06     2.87     2.92     3.08     2.98     3.05     25     25     24     25                                                                                

note that at the 10:13:0 minutes point the pack was unloaded.
at the 10:13:10 sec sec mark, 74A load was applied as it was switched on.

almost immediately, many of the cells drop top near 2.9V from the previous levels of 3.3v...

so....
as im getting zero help from the supplier, it looks like im on my own, and will have to buy 32 new cells soon.....

Jason.
Last edited by 85turbo on Tue, 26 Nov 2013, 16:07, edited 1 time in total.

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G2 Prius Plug in Purchased....

Post by Gabz » Wed, 27 Nov 2013, 03:22

time to go see the blade guy ?
http://www.evcorporation.com.au/

he might be able to help you get rid of that ICE engine weighing your car down ?

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G2 Prius Plug in Purchased....

Post by 85turbo » Wed, 27 Nov 2013, 03:30

nah, ill have to keep the plug in hybrid.

no currently affordable (for me) EV can do the range that i require on a single charge. if my parents lived locally it would be a very different story.

so, ill get the new cells sorted over the next few weeks or so and hopefully and be happy with the best of both worlds.

Jason

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Post by BigMouse » Wed, 27 Nov 2013, 03:53

A drop from 3.3 to 2.9v at a current of 74A represents an internal resistance of 5mOhm. This isn't excessive and is likely within spec for the battery. I suspect they're simply at a lower SoC than the rest of the cells. I think manual balancing is worth a shot before replacing the pack.

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Post by 85turbo » Wed, 27 Nov 2013, 05:53

when the charge terminates, all cells are around 3.5v, would this still be the case if the cells are at different soc levels ?

the other think that has me suspicious of cells being weak, is that after an hour of resting (after a low BMS cut off) the monitor will claim 60% or more charged,
yet turning the system back on will have the BMS again shut off within minutes....

Jason

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Post by coulomb » Wed, 27 Nov 2013, 14:08

85turbo wrote: when the charge terminates, all cells are around 3.5v, would this still be the case if the cells are at different soc levels ?
It could be, if one is at 3.52 and the other at 3.56. But most likely, they are all pretty close.

I still think that they could use a bit more time at the top to equalise.
the other think that has me suspicious of cells being weak, is that after an hour of resting (after a low BMS cut off) the monitor will claim 60% or more charged,
yet turning the system back on will have the BMS again shut off within minutes....

Well, that sounds like the BMS is bad or poorly designed, unless there is really a drain on the cells (perhaps check with a good DC clamp meter), or one (or more) cells is plummeting in voltage. The latter should be easy to check.

If there is no drain when the system is off and there are no cells plummeting, then surely the BMS should be reporting at or very near 100% SOC.

[ Iffy spelling ]
Last edited by coulomb on Wed, 27 Nov 2013, 03:30, edited 1 time in total.
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G2 Prius Plug in Purchased....

Post by offgridQLD » Wed, 27 Nov 2013, 14:23

85turbo wrote: nah, ill have to keep the plug in hybrid. No currently affordable (for me) EV can do the range that i require on a single charge. if my parents lived locally it would be a very different story.


My parents (and my mother-in-law) live 2200km away and my EV has perhaps a 100 - 120km max highway range. I always considered this to be a great advantage Image

Just messing with you, it's not practical for everyone.

Kurt
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Post by Johny » Wed, 27 Nov 2013, 14:38

Jason I thought this company was pushing some cell checmistry other than LiFePO4. Are we all sure that these cells are 3.3V nominal - like LiFePO4.

Second thing - fully charge the pack then at the point where it says they are charged, measure the cells (as best you can - I know it may be impossible for some) with DVM just to prove that they really are at 3.5V or above.
This pack doesn't look like a write off to me.

If, in the end, you decide to replace the cells anyway, pull the pack apart first (before buying) and try to do a capacity measurement on individual cells. There may be someone on the forum (living nearish) who is setup to do this and might help.

This may help in preventing failure if you replace the cells and the BMS/charger setup is what is killing them.

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Post by 85turbo » Thu, 28 Nov 2013, 01:45

good advice Johny.

im fairly confident they are lifepo4 chemistry, though it's always possible they are not. im going to BigMouse's place on the weekend so we can have a poke around the pack.

also, i FINALLY got a response from Nilco2... i have answered some of their questions and will report back what they have to say.

on a positive note, even with a reduced pack capacity, my first full week of commuting and i have some numbers to report back.

268km covered, mostly in 60k-70k zones.
9.03 Liters used
$5 worth of electricity (at 0.25c / Kwh)
3.34L / 100km.

so once the pack issues are sorted, those numbers may well improve.

Jason.

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Post by 85turbo » Sun, 01 Dec 2013, 01:25

discovered some interesting information this afternoon, with big thanks to BigMouse.

30-11-13_With_chart.xlsx

attached is an extract from the SD card in the BMS.

Vincent discovered that there may be (likely is) a problem with the BMS.
as you can see from the data, there is some weird cell mirroring going on, and, in some of the data, cell voltages seem all over the place too.

add to that the fact that the BMS displayed voltages do not match measured cell voltages very well, and im thinking i should try a new BMS before buying new cells, and see how the system goes with the new BMS.

i may still need new cells, but it looks likely the BMS will also require replacing.

i will email the data to nilc02 and see what they have to say also.

Jason.

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Post by BigMouse » Sun, 01 Dec 2013, 19:14

Here's a screen capture for easier review (right click, "View Image" in Firefox to see full res):

Image

Some words to go with it:

The plot shown shows the BMS's logged cell votlages for each cell over roughly 18 minutes while on charge. I don't recall what the charge current was.

At the end of the charge, the voltage of each cell was measured with multimeter at the BMS connection. These readings are in the row labeled "Manual".

The row labelled "Delta" is the magnitude of the difference between the average the manual reading and the average of the BMS cell readings for the final 60 seconds of the log.

Some notes:

Cells 6 and 7 seems to mirror each other toward the first part of the log and again in the middle. Cell 8's logged voltage also drops significantly during these events.

Cell's 4 and 5 display a similar anomalous reading toward the end of the log. This time, cell 6's reading drops significantly.

All cell readings vary from their trend in both directions around sample 44.

Cell 7 is roughly 0.2v higher than the BMS records. The lowest voltage recorded by the BMS was around 1.3V (IIRC) in a different log file. When plotting the trend of that cell (also cell 7) during the time the low voltage was recorded, it was clear that several anomalies occurred (at regular intervals) during that log. Taking the trend during that period as well as the measured offset of 0.2V in to account, it is likely that the actual lowest cell voltage recorded was around 2V for at least 30hrs.

Similar discrepancies were noted on nearly all cells in real time when viewing cell voltages on the BMS display and comparing them to the multimeter. Variations of around 0.2v were noticed on several cells during the charge cycle.

We certainly suspect the BMS to be faulty at this point. Like Jason said, hopefully replacing it will allow the pack to be brought in to proper balance and we'll find that the batteries are in reasonable condition.

We also confirmed that the cells installed are pouch-style cells, which adds complexity to the process of replacing them with prismatic cells if they do need to be replaced.

Jason, feel free to include my analysis above in your email if you haven't sent it off already.

-Vincent
Last edited by BigMouse on Sun, 01 Dec 2013, 08:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by coulomb » Sun, 01 Dec 2013, 20:06

BigMouse wrote: Cells 6 and 7 seems to mirror each other toward the first part of the log and again in the middle. ... We certainly suspect the BMS to be faulty at this point.

It could be as simple as the connections from the BMS to the cells. For example, if the connection between cells 6 and 7 was loose or open circuit, then cells 6 and 7 could read pretty much any random value, but what they add up to would be equal to two cells worth. In other words, in this scenario, you would expect exactly what you see with this "mirroring".

So perhaps it's worth buzzing out that wire first? After that one's done, repeat the process to see if there are others that are loose, high resistance, or otherwise ineffective.
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Post by 85turbo » Sun, 01 Dec 2013, 20:43

charge current is about 15A maximum.the charger pulls just over 900 watts from the wall at maximum load, or around 5A.

Jason.

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Post by BigMouse » Mon, 02 Dec 2013, 04:41

coulomb wrote:
BigMouse wrote: Cells 6 and 7 seems to mirror each other toward the first part of the log and again in the middle. ... We certainly suspect the BMS to be faulty at this point.

It could be as simple as the connections from the BMS to the cells. For example, if the connection between cells 6 and 7 was loose or open circuit, then cells 6 and 7 could read pretty much any random value, but what they add up to would be equal to two cells worth. In other words, in this scenario, you would expect exactly what you see with this "mirroring".

So perhaps it's worth buzzing out that wire first? After that one's done, repeat the process to see if there are others that are loose, high resistance, or otherwise ineffective.


That's an interesting suggestion.

The multimeter readings were taken by back-probing the BMS connectors where they plug in to the BMS enclosure. We checked several cells as the BMS screen reported different high and low cell voltages and cell numbers to verify. On several cells, there was a large discrepancy (+/- 0.2v) between the multimeter reading and the BMS on-screen cell voltage readings. This discrepancy makes me think the wires are not the problem, since I took the readings as close to the BMS as it possible, effectively taking the wires out of the picture. This doesn't rule out an open/high-Z connection inside the BMS, or even the connector itself. I did remove and re-set both connectors (two 9-place pin headers) though, and didn't notice anything wrong with them, though I didn't look closely at the terminals for corrosion. The connectors were a firm fit, not loose.

Fixing the BMS might be as simple as removing the PCB, dabbing some flux on any questionable joints, and reflowing it if a bad connection is the culprit. I'm curious what the supplier's reply will be.

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Post by 85turbo » Tue, 24 Dec 2013, 23:47

thought i would post a little update....

look what arrived today from EV power in WA :)

Image

Image

Image


32x CALB 40Ah cells, 50x interconnects, bolts and a TCCH 25A charger.

Rod said he will ship the BMS and cell modules in a few days via express post.

Jason.
Last edited by 85turbo on Tue, 24 Dec 2013, 12:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Gabz » Mon, 30 Dec 2013, 14:18

nice Christmas present !

What are you going to do with charging now a 25Amp plug ? or go to J1772 ? or can you scale that charger back to 10-15amps ?

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Post by 85turbo » Mon, 30 Dec 2013, 14:36

Apparently, looking at the spec sheet for the charger, it only pulls 6-7A when running off 240v,
So I should be able to run it from a std wall socket fine.

It would be beyond my skill set to go j1772, and probably overkill for this project.

Jason.
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Post by coulomb » Mon, 30 Dec 2013, 15:34

85turbo, were the existing cells damaged? Or was it just less hassle to buy new?
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Post by evric » Mon, 30 Dec 2013, 15:41

85turbo wrote:
32x CALB 40Ah cells, 50x interconnects, bolts and a TCCH 25A charger.
Rod said he will ship the BMS and cell modules in a few days via express post.
Jason.


Hi Jason,
I think the "25" in the model number represents 2.5kW power rating.
Eric
Last edited by evric on Mon, 30 Dec 2013, 16:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by 85turbo » Mon, 30 Dec 2013, 15:49

coulomb wrote: 85turbo, were the existing cells damaged? Or was it just less hassle to buy new?


Yeah, then existing pouch type cells were damaged by a long period of self discharge.
Now I have one of the 8S groups that has swelled up. So I'm not using the kit at the moment at all.

Jason.
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