Is the EV already obsolete?

Open for any sort of non-technical discussion regarding EVs
marcopolo
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Is the EV already obsolete?

Post by marcopolo » Wed, 31 Aug 2011, 03:08

This post is bound to raise some die-hard hackles!

Daily we read of longer and longer range Electric vehicles. The impending release of the large 5 seat Tesla ‘S’ sedan, with a range capacity of over 500 klms and 12 minute fast charge capacity appears set to ensure the internal combustion engine obsolete!. Nearly every major auto-manufacturer is racing to produce some form of EV. Given the level of concern over global warming, carbon taxes, oil depletion, and increases in the price of gasoline, the future of EV transport, never looked brighter!

Or does it?

Yesterday, after driving over 1080 klm to reach a small and remote Australian outback town, I stopped to refuel my Lexus GS450h, (premium fuel at $Aus1.58 litre), at the local Shell service station. As I paid for the gasoline, and some other small items, I reflected on the important economic and social contribution the owner of the service station/mechanical repair business, (and his five employees), made to the life of this small community. The adoption of long range EV’s would see service stations, and repair/small engineering business's, extinct.

Just one more nail in the coffin of the viability of small rural communities.

As a long term advocate and investor in EV technology, I can’t help feeling responsible for contributing to the demise of these struggling rural communities, and accelerating the drift to the cities.

Later that evening, I read an article by Virent Energy Systems Inc, and Royal Dutch Shell Oil Ltd, concerning the development of a potentially revolutionary bio-fuel. This fuel could potentially replace oil based petroleum with a renewable, non pollutant fuel. This fuel can be produced by utilising existing oil industry infrastructure, from the refinery to the pump! Shell estimates production costs could be as low as $40-37 per barrel. (25-37 cents per litre + tax)

Fuel certification testing has established that no modifications are necessary to make existing vehicles compatible with the new fuel. The testing proved the new fuel caused no harm to even older vehicles.

In general, Bio-fuels production has been beset with problems relating to the difficulties of agricultural requirements to provide feedstock. Without massive taxpayer subsidies, bio-fuels have proved uneconomic. As a result, Bio-fuel has fallen out of favour in many countries. In contrast, rapid developments in EV technology has resulted in billions of dollars in investment pouring into producing vehicles such as the Nissan Leaf, Tesla, and GM’s Volt etc.

The EV seemed to provide all the important environmental answers, with the bonus of an almost maintenance free vehicle. It’s true that the ‘long tail pipe’ argument can be deployed by naysayers, but despite the source of electricity, EV's are still preferable to gasoline.

However, if Virent/Shell’s new zero-pollution, economic fuel becomes a reality, would anyone bother to continue mass producing EV’s?

Has the EV, enjoyed its brief moment in the sun?

Virent/Shell’s development could be the most important discovery of the twenty-first century. The Virent process can be used to fuel all forms of transport, replacing diesel, aviation fuel, kerosene, petrol etc.

Virent/Shell believes economic sustainable mass production of bio-fuel feedstock is possible

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Post by bladecar » Wed, 31 Aug 2011, 04:02

Hi Italian Voyager,

Maybe the service station could install some power points with which to recharge ev's.

I note this bio-fuel is "non pollutant".

So, the fuel is burnt in the engine. What comes out the end? Air? Water?

Maybe not greenhouse gas (then again, maybe), but smog-inducing substances? I look forward to Shell elaborating on this. Hopefully, that was the first thing they did.   Aren't I a hopeful person.

Then, the car still uses fuel, oil, plugs. A real leap forward. The used oil goes where.

I'm thinking that ev's will require some reasonable repairs when you think of repairs done in factories with many electric controllers, power supplies etc. From what I've seen, complete assemblies (often expensive) are replaced sooner, rather than later.

Anyway, the car industry in general appears to be desperate to remain what they've always been. There doesn't appear to be any "accept change or fall by the wayside" mantra that management foists on the workers in the interests of a better (or more highly controlled) way to do things.

Today, I invite car drivers to wind down their windows and take in the air. Sit behind a van, a truck, or play the game of "which car is filling my car with fumes."   If you make it through that without a care, drive into the nearest road tunnel and see how long you can go before bailing out for safety reasons. IC cars have to go.
Last edited by bladecar on Thu, 01 Sep 2011, 03:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by marcopolo » Wed, 31 Aug 2011, 06:02

bladecar wrote: I note this bio-fuel is "non pollutant".
So, the fuel is burnt in the engine. What comes out the end? Air? Water? Then, the car still uses fuel, oil, plugs. A real leap forward. The used oil goes where.IC cars have to go.
Thank you for your reply! Any friend of Ross Blade, is OK by me!

To answer your questions. The process has been developed by a small group of scientists in Madison, Wisconsin. They took the process to Shell to industrialise. The somewhat secretive privately owned giant US feedstock corporation Cargil is the third leg, providing feedstock technology and logistics.

You are making a mistake when you condemn the ICE per se. The ICE is not inherently harmful, just the fuel it runs on! Change the fuel, and you remove the complaint.

The product emits zero emissions. (US fuels must be certified). There is no fossil fuel oil. The energy and waste are completely burned. Whatever remains, is harmless and not capable of contributing to smog.I would imagine that the engine lubricants, also bio-fuel products, are bio-degradable. (I'm not sure about the basis of your objection to spark plugs?)

There is no 'oil' as such. Although the fuel imitates oil, it is in fact more green than an EV being powered by Coal generated electricity.

But, you are quite right. Virent says it works and Shell are being very coy. But, the product can't be discounted, Shell and Cargill are not in the habit of backing losers. Both corporations are putting serious money behind this technology.The project requires no government(Taxpayer) investment. Stage one is completed and Shell and Cargill will invest an initial $2 billion, on a pilot project. If that's successfully, Shell/Cargill will spend $80 billion commercialising stage three. Then,... they will get serious!

Distressingly, if this product is the real deal, much as I love the concept of EV's, I couldn't recommend an investment in EV technology with such a clearly superior competitor. No investment, no EV industry.

Do your own comparison, a buyer can choose between a vehicle with enormous power to run air-con, and all manner of luxury items. The vehicle will travel at high speed, for unlimited distances, for about 15% of the current petrol bill. But the main selling feature of the vehicle,(apart from convenience) is a retail purchase price 50% less than an EV.

In contrast, the EV has only a slightly cheaper operating cost.(12-15%).

However, that is pre-supposing Virent/Shell/Cargill can make the process work! Oh, and if Cargill can achieve logistical supply of feedstock on an industrial scale.

Still....

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Post by bladecar » Wed, 31 Aug 2011, 16:16

Hi marcopolo,

Peak oil was around 10 years ago. Plus, wars are developing around the main oil-producing areas and are controlled by difficult people. India and China are just starting to add real numbers of cars to the roads. Pirates attacking tankers, anyone?

The oil companies know it's only downhill from here, volume-wise.

As you say, can they get an amazing volume of NEWFUEL via feedstock? We are at the point where we can't feed TOO MANY PEOPLE, with another 2 billion added by 2050. (If they're going to grow it in Australia, I hope there is real water under the ground by then.)

So, the product emits zero emissions. That is a huge call. The energy and waste are completely burnt?   As you know, nothing is created or destroyed in chemical reactions. Therefore, what comes out is compounds of various types - Zero emissions, by my approach, is either air or water. Maybe this is diesel-type particulates which are not toxic. Can you imagine millions of cars puffing non-toxic compounds into the atmosphere. It would all settle by the roadside, in the trees, and blow in the wind. It sounds like a big improvement on petrol/diesel, but zero emissions sounds as unlikely as global warming (though I do believe in global warming).

Internal-Combustion-Engined cars would still need oil for lubrication, no matter what the fuel.

My objection to spark plugs is with reference to a comment I heard that Americans no longer are prepared to spend 80% of their income on the car industry, as they did in the 50's, 60's. Spark plugs represent over-complexity and structured maintenance in the car industry. True, they employ many people, but I'd prefer that that industry employed fewer. I do hope alternative jobs are created in an alternate-powered world.

I still think of Electric Vehicles like I think of prime movers, buses, bicycles, wheel-barrows, skateboards, tractors, dumpys, cranes.

You don't take a crane to the supermarket. Why drive a petrol/diesel car to the supermarket. Drive an electric vehicle.   So the price is ridiculously high. Think of it like the Stawell Gift foot race. I'm talking COST here, over time. The EV starts at the back and with a bit of luck will be in the leading bunch (after 5-7 years). By this, I mean that the EV owner's outlay may not be radically different to the cheap petrol car plus petrol and maintenance (plus depreciation). You should have solar panels, I admit, and I have them. Also consider smaller, lighter, cheaper, more-powerful batteries as the years go by, which you could replace your original batteries with. (The Blade company have upgraded numerous earliest models to later model specifications on request.)

Unless you live alone, most families will need two cars at some point. I believe one of those cars should be an EV. The majority of trips per day are not beyond the currently arriving EV vehicles, and it will only get better.

It is still true that the power stations run through the night and very little power is being consumed - day/night power consumption is very lop-sided.   Charging EV's when that power is not being utilised is a GAIN.   True, the power stations need to change in method, but it is a gain to drive on unused electical power instead of producing waste out of a car's exhaust pipe.

An unknown for me is the recyclability of the electric car components, including batteries. I'm simply hoping that the EV industry does not result in shocking pollution from their old components.

Anyway, we're getting our Blade cars in October now (put back a bit) and I'll be driving them for as long as possible.

Australia will go broke, along with everyone else, if they can't change from oil imports. And remember, a NEWFUEL price would adapt to what the consumer will bear.

Oh, one last thing :)   This NEWFUEL may happen. But when?   EV's are coming, but when.   It seems obvious, but drive past the car yards today. If they had an EV for sale (battery job), you'd have to look closely to see it. I don't recognise a Prius when I drive past the Prius shop. If they're on display, I don't spot them. They're not trying very hard. They're delaying at every chance. Maybe it's a Japanese thing but what a disaster the iMiev is in styling. Maybe the Japanese like that sort of thing, but otherwise, they're not trying very hard. I'm getting my cars now.

This last-paragraph rant is really about the percentage of huge-panelled heaps of sh*t that populate the display areas. It really is disappointing that they still occupy such a large area of the sales yards. The one good thing is the number of smaller 4-cylinder cars on the roads. I'd say they'd be 50%, to grab a number.

The Finale:   News C*rp may give their full attention to MAKING the EV obsolete within a couple of years (once they throttle back to cruise control with politics).
Last edited by bladecar on Sun, 11 Sep 2011, 06:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Is the EV already obsolete?

Post by photomac » Sun, 11 Sep 2011, 16:49

I believe ICE will be here for awhile.
The market to keep current inventory alive will push development of alternative fuels.
Now - biofuel from seawater algae I believe is a holy grail

http://www.aurorainc.com/solutions/biofuel/

Grows in endless seawater, in endless sun in the endless Pilbara.
The company were interviewed for Innovations Program, ABC National Radio

http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/ra/podcast/ ... 110326.mp3

A hybrid system running Algae sourced biodiesel generator when required could be good.
I particularly like the concept of a towing a such a device as required, rather than permanently installed.
I would only need it on holidays.
Yes,   we can.   Image
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Post by jonescg » Sun, 11 Sep 2011, 17:20

After a weekend of racing at Winton, it dawned on me just how pointlessly inefficient the internal combustion engine was. I spend about $5.50 on electricity, while a Yamaha R1 used maybe $80 worth of premium. The 17 litre tank on the R1 contained within it ~170 kWh worth of energy, and was able to make use of less than 10 kWh of that energy.

Biofuels simply give this 100 year old technology another lease on life. It's still inefficient, loud and smelly. Batteries only need to double in energy density to be equivalent in terms of range and performance to that of an IC bike.

However, in all of this one must remember that we don't really need personal motorised transport most of the time, especially when we can walk or ride a bike 5-7 km without raising a sweat (or a bill).

I don't know, I just think that electrics have more room for development and more gains are there to be had, over IC. Especially in the two wheeled market.
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Post by Gow864 » Sun, 11 Sep 2011, 23:18

jonescg wrote: However, in all of this one must remember that we don't really need personal motorised transport most of the time, especially when we can walk or ride a bike 5-7 km without raising a sweat (or a bill).


Whoa! What about the wealthy? Can they walk or ride a bike? I thought that was why there are idiotically priced 2 tonne living rooms on wheels. they need multiple way of demonstrating their wealth you know :)

Gow.

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Post by marcopolo » Mon, 12 Sep 2011, 07:57

photomac wrote: I believe ICE will be here for awhile.
The market to keep current inventory alive will push development of alternative fuels.Now - biofuel from seawater algae I believe is a holy grail


Yes indeed! you may be right. Wherever the feedstock is to come from, the Virent process will be able to process it into bio-gasoline. The Virent process will allow a benchmark for raw bio-feedstock of $30-40.00 per barrel ($180-$240.00 per tonne.)

The Virent process is able to produce a finished product, (Bio-gasoline) with the same, or better, calorific yield 4-6x more economically than bio-diesel.

jonescg
Biofuels simply give this 100 year old technology another lease on life. It's still inefficient, loud and smelly. Batteries only need to double in energy density to be equivalent in terms of range and performance to that of an IC bike. However, in all of this one must remember that we don't really need personal motorised transport most of the time, especially when we can walk or ride a bike 5-7 km without raising a sweat (or a bill). I don't know, I just think that electrics have more room for development and more gains are there to be had, over IC. Especially in the two wheeled market.
IMO, it's always a mistake to extrapolate personal lifestyle preferences, to what the general public will prefer. If cheap,(40-50 cent per litre) non-pollutant,bio-gasoline became available tomorrow, Joe Public will flock to the pump, forget about walking, or any other austerity, the Aussie six-cylinder would be back in business!

What people need, and what they want, are two very different matters! Joe Public will always vote for what he wants, over what he needs, (if he can have it) every-time!

But, I think you may be right, the two-wheel EV market may still have potential.

It all depends on whether you see the adoption of EV's as a personal choice, or as a mass-manufactured industry.

I love EV's, and for more than 15 years, like Ross Blade, I have invested a great deal of money and time in developing EV applications and and marketing opportunities.

But, I must be realistic,the Virent process may be too much competition for EV's, on a commercial scale. (no doubt it was equally hard for the Video tape industry, when DVD's were invented)!

As an Investment Strategist, I am always alert to rival technologies with the potential to surpass EV's. If Virent/Shell/ Honda/Cargill, BP/Nestle. Exxon/MonSanto, Chevron/LS9 Inc, or even China National Petroleum Corporation/Jilin, can solve the feedstock production dynamic, then, due to the Virent Process, the commercial viability of mass-manufactured EV's will quickly disappear .

Much to my regret!

Gow,

Green, is about environmentalism, the benefits are for everyone, rich and poor alike.

That's why it's 'green', not Red!

The politics of envy and hatred, only reveal your own personality problems. You influence only your own opinion, preventing you from making any real contribution, outside of venting your personal spite. I feel sorry for you.

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Post by antiscab » Mon, 12 Sep 2011, 14:09

marcopolo wrote: If cheap,(40-50 cent per litre) non-pollutant,bio-gasoline became available tomorrow, Joe Public will flock to the pump, forget about walking, or any other austerity, the Aussie six-cylinder would be back in business!


While true, getting the price down to 40-50 cent per litre (before tax) is infinitely harder than getting the cost down to that level

The later can be achieved by the backyard use veg oil recycler, the later there may not be sufficient feedstock available to absorb sufficient demand

I see healthy profit margins for oil companies, but a reduction in price is unlikely......
At best it will ensure energy intensive industries that don't really have a choice other than liquid fuel (like aviation) don't face a fuel shortage.

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Post by marcopolo » Mon, 12 Sep 2011, 21:09

Hi Matt, thank you for your reply.   
antiscab wrote:The later can be achieved by the backyard use veg oil recycler.


Nope, that'll only give you a low octane yield, bio-diesel with a limited number of vehicles able to use the fuel, after modifications.Attempts to upscale have all been unsuccessful without subsidies.
antiscab wrote: While true, getting the price down to 40-50 cent per litre (before tax) is infinitely harder than getting the cost down to that level.

Not at all. Although the Virent/Shell process is the first, it's not so unique that other major oil companies can't access the technology. The Virent process allows the production of a 'biopetrol' that can be used exactly like petrol, with no special modifications to the supply chain or vehicles. From refinery, to pump, to car, truck etc, seamlessly. It also delivers, modestly better mileages.

The issue of feedstock supply, presents challenges. This has always been the weakness in the viability of biofuels.

However, if Cargill can resolve this issue on a commercial reliable basis for Shell, then BP/Nestle. Exxon/MonSanto, Chevron/LS9 Inc, China National Petroleum Corporation/Jilin, and countless other oil giants will rush to invest in feedstock supply production.

Competition will drive down prices.( Simultaneously, reducing the price of fossil fuel oil).

Even if you don't accept natural market mechanisms, the oil companies would price 'biogasoline' cheaply enough to deter investment in the development of alternate technologies, such as EV's, hydrogen etc.

Already, most Auto manufacturers have models capable of a minimum 5/100 klm. The new fuel, will improve on those mileages even more.

But consider, even if the new fuel was heavily taxed, and retailed at $1.00 per litre. (The Australian government would find such an excessive tax (100%) on a biofuel, politically unsustainable).

But, even a $1.00 per litre! The average motorist average motorist travels 12,000 klms per year, at a cost of say, $600.

Now an EV may travel 80% cheaper, say a difference of $500, and even allowing for servicing costs etc, of another $500 per year the difference between the personal transport technologies is still evident!

Purchase of an EV would take at least 12 years to justify,(without calculating battery replacement).

Once the environmental argument against the ICE is removed, Oil companies could reasonably argue for EV owners to pay their fair share of road use tax,(say $300 pa.) making EV even less competitive! In fact, while the New Fuel could claim carbon tax credits, EV's would attract carbon tax, since Australia's main electricity supply is Coal Fired. (Only at Public Charging).

In addition, without huge US and European subsidies, Leaf,iMev, Volt etc, would not be sold in sufficient numbers to justify manufacture!

Take away the environmental issues, lower the cost of fuel, the cheaper purchase price, versatility, and convenience of ICE, wins the competition between the two technologies every time.

Matt, as I stated at the beginning of this thread, this is all predicated on the simple basis that feedstock supply can be economically secured. Bio-fuels always had two technical problems, Compatibility, and Feedstock logistics.

Virent has solved the first, brilliantly!

Now, the question remains, is this technical development sufficient to motivate the enormously resourceful, and sometimes government backed, giant corporations to solve the second half?

(Hmmm...or have they already... !!)



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Post by Gow864 » Mon, 12 Sep 2011, 22:08

marcopolo wrote:
Gow,

Green, is about environmentalism, the benefits are for everyone, rich and poor alike.

That's why it's 'green', not Red!

The politics of envy and hatred, only reveal your own personality problems. You influence only your own opinion, preventing you from making any real contribution, outside of venting your personal spite. I feel sorry for you.


Did you think I was talking to you Noodles??? didn't I already tell you? I'll do it again. YOU ARE A TOSSER! I wouldn't lower myself to discuss anything with the self interested maggot you are. :)
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Post by jonescg » Mon, 12 Sep 2011, 23:31

I think there's a hackle right there Image
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Post by antiscab » Mon, 12 Sep 2011, 23:39

marcopolo wrote:
Nope, that'll only give you a low octane yield, bio-diesel with a limited number of vehicles able to use the fuel,
antiscab wrote: While true, getting the price down to 40-50 cent per litre (before tax) is infinitely harder than getting the cost down to that level.

Not at all. Although the Virent/Shell process is the first, it's not so unique that other major oil companies can't access the technology.


all diesel is low octane, it has to be otherwise compression detonation doesn't work....

its harder to get the price down, because to do so requires production on a scale sufficient to satisfy demand growth, falls in conventional fuel capacity, and making up the present shortfall

Particularly as demand increases rather more rapidly with a falling fuel price

There just isn't enough feedstock to achieve that...

Theres plenty enough to make a profit between cost of production and sell price (ie makes a good investment) but nothing like enough scale to bring the price down to where is was 10 years ago
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Post by marcopolo » Tue, 13 Sep 2011, 01:54

[quote="jonescg"] I think there's a hackle right there [quote]

Npoe, that's just the sad cry of a lonely troll biting it's own tail!

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Post by marcopolo » Tue, 13 Sep 2011, 03:24

Matt,thank you for your thoughts. It would be a bitter pill to be beaten at the post by a new bio-fuel just when EV's are becoming really exciting!
antiscab wrote: It's harder to get the price down, because to do so requires product on a scale sufficient to satisfy demand growth, falls in conventional fuel capacity, and making up the present shortfall Particularly as demand increases rather more rapidly with a falling fuel price There just isn't enough feedstock to achieve that...
Well, that the whole question isn't it? With one half of the puzzle solved, Is it possible for feedstock bio-geneticists, to devise a method of producing feedstock on a gigantic scale?

I don't know that answer.

Some suggest ocean algae, others bamboo, If I were asked to speculate, I would envisage a tree bearing nut-like fruit,3 x p.a. The tree would be genetically engineered to live over 100 years, but mature within 7 years. It would be able to thrive on marginal, non-arable land. The tree would also be sterile, so as to prevent cross species contamination, and resistant to pests, fungi etc. The plantation would be fed water and nutrients hydroponically, from a self-fuelled, desalination plant. The nuts, once harvested and crushed, yield 40% feedstock to the refinery, the rest being turned into fertiliser.

I am informed by bio-geneticists, that such a product is possible. Although the capital investment would be colossal, it's well within the capacity of any of the giant conglomerates, I have mentioned.

On an industrial scale, such a product could easily be scaled up within twenty-five years to provide over a 140 barrels per day! (The calculation is very rough, estimating land available, yield and sustainability.) (Algae calculations are similar).

This would exceed current world oil demand by 70%! The scale of Forrest's, and prevention of desertification, would provide immense benefit to the environment, in terms of carbon capture,(virtually increasing the world forests by 10%)!

The trees would also provide a huge long term, sustainable, secure asset(s)for investors.

But, that's just my guess! However, here's a disturbing thought! If, with little scientific training, I can envisage such a possibility, what can Cargills 6300 scientists conceive?!(or maybe, already have concieved....?)
Theres plenty enough to make a profit between cost of production and sell price (ie makes a good investment) but nothing like enough scale to bring the price down to where is was 10 years ago
You may be right, but IMHO, I can see the price being lowered dramatically! The difference between fossil fuel oil production, and bio-production, is enormous!

A bio-scheme similar to the one I've outlined must involve an enormous establishment cost. As an estimate, about $2.2 trillion over 20 years. (curiously about the figure the oil companies have 'reserved' for special purposes) but once established, bio-gasoline, would cost only a fraction of oil exploration and extraction.

Matt, I agree that such a scenario is highly speculative! Even if realistic, I would expect hybrid EV's to still fulfil a useful role.

But, what about the PIEV? How will battery, (and EV) R&D, raise investment funds? Who will invest in EV mass production?

One exciting fact emerges from Virents discover. Bio-feedstock will need lots of cheap, sunny land, in an vast, low population continent.

Maybe Australia will be the new Saudi Arabia?

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Post by marcopolo » Wed, 14 Sep 2011, 10:57

Since I posted the above replies a news story has appeared from the PLA and reported by Reuters Sep 13th 2011:

"PetroChina, the world's third most valuable company as of the second quarter of 2011, says it will add 11.1 million tons of biofuel production capacity by 2015, according to a company official who spoke with Reuters. Additionally, PetroChina says it will import 470,000 tons of biofuels by 2015, as China aims to make use of more alternative fuels.

The biofuel imports, likely from countries such as Brazil and the U.S., will be blended with gasoline and sold in southern Chinese provinces. PetroChina currently has limited biofuel production capacity."

This story was repeated in the Finance and Investment media with a slightly different twist:

"The PRC is conducting wide spread bio-fuel research in the vast western provinces.The PLA is 'reserving' millions of acres as defence land. Western Intelligence speculation that recent involvement of large scale research and survey by PRC feedstock and agri-geneticists, involves the creation of vast bio-fuel feedstock production, designed to guarantee fuel supply for the PLA."

The significance of this message could be viewed in the context of the the PRC's announcement to cut back PRC government support for EV manufacture.


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Post by bladecar » Wed, 14 Sep 2011, 21:21

Hi,

I think that governments are likely to cut back on encouragement contributions to industries when those industries are reasonably strong.

After peak oil, it makes sense for governments like the p*rc to head in the direction of reserving vast amounts of land when military might depends so much on conventional fuel.

I've occasionally thought about just what environmental damage WW2 did and has anybody tried to quantify the damage. 1000 bomber raids most nights, tankers full of oil sunk, 10000 (I think it might have been 23000 tanks at the end) tanks travelling from moscow to berlin at 10 mph.

It just goes to show how up against it the world is that we are unable to break such bad behaviour, environment-wise.

If it was as it seemed, it's interesting to think about China commenting to Australia that they ceased the so-called technology being employed with coal-seam-gas 20 years ago. China is also buying Australian land. They wouldn't want the water underneath to be contaminated if they are going to feed the chinese people, or fuel military vehicles. They might defend such strategic land with VIGOUR, no matter where it was :)

Fighter jets and heavy tanks will probably never run on batteries.

This is not related to looking after the environment, just what countries continue to do.

AMPrentice
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Is the EV already obsolete?

Post by AMPrentice » Fri, 16 Sep 2011, 02:53

Id rather see no auto fuel surviving car stops at all
however Id love human food instead.
Its a matter of evolution where we can stop for fresh
produce and a feed.
Homegrown & homecooked - aquaponics or other Aussie grown
agricultural technology is the way for rural communities.

as for the comment.....

Whoa! What about the wealthy? Can they walk or ride a bike? I thought that was why there are idiotically priced 2 tonne living rooms on wheels. they need multiple way of demonstrating their wealth you know :)

Its more like 3 to 4 tonnes these days especially for the EV SUVs
that need the power of a whole suburban block to recharge or a
square mile of solar panels

EVs w/ 2 X range, bring it on!
Solar farms, bring it on!
Geo-thermal, bring it on!
Algae bio fuels bring it on!

(anything to help air pollution)
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

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Never vote Labour, Liberal or Maggots like them.

marcopolo
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Is the EV already obsolete?

Post by marcopolo » Fri, 16 Sep 2011, 06:53

bladecar wrote: Hi,

After peak oil, it makes sense for governments like the PRC to head in the direction of reserving vast amounts of land when military might depends so much on conventional fuel.
I've occasionally thought about just what environmental damage WW2 did and has anybody tried to quantify the damage. 1000 bomber raids most nights, tankers full of oil sunk, 10000 (I think it might have been 23000 tanks at the end) tanks travelling from moscow to berlin at 10 mph.
It just goes to show how up against it the world is that we are unable to break such bad behaviour, environment-wise.
If it was as it seemed, it's interesting to think about China commenting to Australia that they ceased the so-called technology being employed with coal-seam-gas 20 years ago. China is also buying Australian land. They wouldn't want the water underneath to be contaminated if they are going to feed the chinese people, or fuel military vehicles. They might defend such strategic land with VIGOUR, no matter where it was :)Fighter jets and heavy tanks will probably never run on batteries.
This is not related to looking after the environment, just what countries continue to do.


Bladecar, thank you for your interesting thoughts. I fear the 'price' of PRC 'defence' might be a little high. Essentially, the PRC is not really a belligerent power. It is however a giant ringed by military powers, and the danger of an arms race, is that sooner or later, someone's bound to want to try them out!


marcopolo
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Is the EV already obsolete?

Post by marcopolo » Fri, 16 Sep 2011, 07:34

AMPrentice wrote: Its more like 3 to 4 tonnes these days especially for the EV SUVs that need the power of a whole suburban block to recharge or a square mile of solar panels
Not at all! The LEVRR, uses only 2x the charging of a Nissan Leaf, But it can tow a twin horse float 200 klm. In Iceland, with rough roads but Geo-thermal power, you can buy a selection of 4WD SUV's,including Toyota, Ford Explorer (and Ranger), Mercedes and Jeep, all EV's. The Icelandic power company subsidies both the vehicles cost, and operation.

The Solar installation I have installed on the property, should not only charge the EV Rangy, but eliminate most mains power usage. I have had a Jacobsen Clubman converted to an EV as a replacement for one John Deare Gator. This little vehicle will not be a robust as a ICE Gator,but for it's task it will do the job. In the UK, I am about to receive the first of three, 10 tonne Smith EV farm trucks, charged by Wind power.(! wish someone invent rain-power for the UK!)

I'm also investigating the potential of group ownership of the Jacobsen EV ride on mower. As a community asset, the $60,000 purchase price, could be amortised over a number of community applications. (golf club,Race course, Bowls, Cenotaph, Footy grounds, Equestrian venues, and really big lawns!)It could be charged from surplus solar power, and provide one person with employment.

We have used the same EV ride on mower in the UK for some years, and it has been very successful.

There are opportunities everywhere for EV adoption.       



Dean
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Is the EV already obsolete?

Post by Dean » Fri, 16 Sep 2011, 08:15

About engine oil

Back in the 80's I saw an episode of Beyond/Towards 2000 a couple of guys using a drill as a pump a toilet paper roll wound twice as tight (with the card board inner removed) as a filter, they cleaned engine oil 100% clear and reuseable.

For under $200 this could be set up on any engine as a remote filter replacing the original.

Heaven forbid the oil companies get wind of this idea....

About Production Electric cars

All the Car manufactures made a big plans and statements about pure electic cars a few years ago and stated by 2013 pure electric sports models and showed off working concepts over the last few years until its all deflated down to 2 door metro toy (30km or less) hybrid cars that even your missus thinks is ugly and too small/dangerous to drive.

Whats happened with all these new start up innovative companies promising electric cars or in wheel motors? Its like the DOT com era for the EV at the moment.

Goes to show how much money they can throw away to shut people up, then wait there time and give the people what they want to give you.

Conspiracy I say hell yeh, Bureaucracy not listening hell yeh

But marcopolo is right the government isnt about to destroy an essential oil/petrol infrastucter overnight or over a few short years betting on 100% electic cars soon, over the next 20yrs, maybe, im not holding my breath

marcopolo
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Is the EV already obsolete?

Post by marcopolo » Fri, 16 Sep 2011, 09:14

[quote="Dean"] All the Car manufactures made a big plans and statements about pure electric cars a few years ago and stated by 2013 pure electric sports models and showed off working concepts over the last few years until its all deflated down to 2 door metro toy (30km or less) hybrid cars that even your missus thinks is ugly and too small/dangerous to drive.[quote]

Dean, thank you for your views, but mate, so far Toyota has sold nearly 3 million hybrids! Ranging from the Prius, to the Lexus Luxury range, including the mid-sized 4WD SUV RX 450h. These have proved so successful that Toyota are now releasing Plug-in versions.

Tesla have sold 2000 roadsters.The Big sedan Tesla 'S' EV, is about to enter production. GM are producing the PIEV GM Volt, and building the UK/European Ampera version. Soon there will be a Buick version and a ELR Cadillac coupe PIEV!


The EV Nissan Leaf has sold more than 10,000 units, Fisker have finally released a sensational PIEV. Smith trucks have sold more than 2500 EV trucks. Ford is about to release the EV focus into general production.Renault have just released an EV light delivery vehicle which should take the market by storm!iMev,Blade Electron, the list goes on and on....



But you are right, in comparison to the 73 million ICE vehicles sold p.a, these numbers are still very small.

Without a rival technology, oil depletion will eventually ensure EV's will become the dominant form of road transport i the years to come.

However, if Virents biogasoline process can be matched to feedstock, (with economic logistic's), EV's are in big trouble. It's exactly as you say, no one will spend the money to change infrastructure,unnecessarily and uneconomically.

AMPrentice
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Is the EV already obsolete?

Post by AMPrentice » Mon, 26 Sep 2011, 01:45

Some probably already know about it but just in case
as for years Im still wondering if "pondscum" is the
best fuel for keeping all ICE contraptions worldwide

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MeIgaRf ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ih-DLurcZA

my favorite :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsQCj_Pa ... re=related
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

No Queen, No Prime Minister, No hierarchical system to break down our communities
Never vote Labour, Liberal or Maggots like them.

marcopolo
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Is the EV already obsolete?

Post by marcopolo » Thu, 06 Oct 2011, 02:20

@AMPrentice

Algae is one of those feedstock always about to 'breakthrough' but never seems to be able to scale up to commercial quantities. I have often thought that it might prove useful in helping to deal with coal mining by-product gases.

Time will tell!

AMPrentice
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Joined: Tue, 05 Aug 2008, 19:30
Location: down south

Is the EV already obsolete?

Post by AMPrentice » Fri, 07 Oct 2011, 20:34

I hope it does as the Vertigro system could be used in cheap sunny
salinated land without much use for anything else.
http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

No Queen, No Prime Minister, No hierarchical system to break down our communities
Never vote Labour, Liberal or Maggots like them.

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