AEVA Forums

Posted: **Tue, 10 Aug 2010, 21:53**

ultrabattery information

CSIRO's UltraBattery to cut cost of hybrid battery by $2,000 in two years
by Lascelles Linton (RSS feed) on Jan 20th 2008 at 6:33PM

Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO) has developed a hybrid car battery that costs 70 percent less all while charging faster, providing 50 percent more power and recharging more times, increasing the life of battery by 300 percent. CSIRO's so called UltraBattery combines technologies of the capacitor and a regular lead-acid battery to make a better battery. Capacitors and batteries working together is not a new thing but the Ultrabattery gets the advantages without using control electronics. The batteries have undergone testing in a Honda Insight for the last year in the UK and just passed 100,000 miles. "After all this testing we are now very confident we can support medium hybrids or even full, plug-in hybrids," says David Lamb, leader of CSIRO's low emissions transport research. The test car was not perfect and David admits "it is 17kg heavier and that creates a fuel consumption penalty of 2.8 percent. But it is about one quarter of the cost, so you save around $2000 on the cost of building the car." 2.8 percent loss in fuel economy for $2,000 in savings sounds like a good deal to me. David thinks Japanese automakers (the battery was produced in Japan by Furukawa Battery Company) will think it's a good deal too and says that we'll be able to buy UltraBatteries in just two years. "They will have had these batteries on test for a year and if they have done as well as that car in England they will be as thrilled as we are and will be doing their best to find ways to milk the technology in some future model. But they don't tell us what they are doing," explains David.

Shouldnt Oz be making these batteries to create more green jobs
and power all our needs from auto to solar? Lead is easy to recycle
and available everywhere in the world all the way from from Fluke
from industry to our tips concrete encased lead as required by EPA.

Posted: **Wed, 11 Aug 2010, 00:17**

so many views and no votes? what conservative pro-lithium junkies we have

)

Posted: **Thu, 12 Aug 2010, 01:38**

lotsa % more claims, but no actual numbers.

this battery has been "coming" for a long time.

also, note the date on that article?

2 years from 2008.....

Its an irrelevant technology IMO

Posted: **Thu, 12 Aug 2010, 22:01**

Matt I agree its still not showing fruit, could it be that like all companies their roadmaps arent usually smooth?
Its seems a simple enough idea to use ultracapacitors for the high discharge requirements but what kind of
device would be needed to slowly charge the ultracapacitors (U/V) from the lead acid? Maybe it would be best to incorporate U/C with current batteries?
Any privateers online that has employed UC in their EVs?

Posted: **Fri, 13 Aug 2010, 06:13**

Looks like the technology is not dead its thriving soon.
http://www.abc.net.au/iview/#
catalyst's latest episode features the ultrabattery
episode 25 series 11 aired august 12 2010

Posted: **Fri, 13 Aug 2010, 06:27**

The CSIRO Ultra battery was spruked it on Catalyst tonight.
Catalyst ABC report page

For someone with cash to burn ($42) they could review the article on Science Direct:
Development of ultra-battery for hybrid-electric vehicle applications

I think the fact that it is based on Lead-Acid cycle makes me wonder how good the charge/discharge cycle is (ie power in / power out).

I'm also concerned about toxic chemicals being used in massive volumes to power EV's. Thinking ahead makes me wonder how will all this lead and sulphates be recycled. I'm also concerned about the carbon nano-particles in the Ultra-capacitor and also used in some Lithium batteries.

What I really don't understand is why CSIRO is so quiet on their developments. It's 2010 you would think they would have had some new information to add to how good the Ultra-battery is.

I wonder when the ABC Catalyst Report was recorded, may be it's 2 years old.

I would like to know what types of Lead Acid batteries are made in Asutralia. The processes used in Australian manufacturing plants may not be compatible with what this battery requires. If they are only making batteries for Starting engines then they may not be near setup to intergrate this technology.

If you need to build a new plant to make them them the production volume will be a big issue. There is already a market for LEad acid traction batteries in Forklift and other goods/storage delivery vehicles. If this technology is so good then it doesn't need the Hybrid or PHEV market to get going.

Regarding the progress of Super or Ultra capacitors another CSIRO publications appears to suggest the battery is redundent. (But that was from Nov 2004 even older).

Somehow we have to cut the hype out of all those spruking their patentable technology and look at data that will actually be usefull in designing an EV. We can by LiFePO4 batteries from China now at less than 60¢/Wh that last over 2000 cycles at 70% DoD and protected from over charging. I don't like all the embedded energy in shipping them around but it certainly sets a price point.

I wonder which Stock values went up or down after catalyst?

CSIRO has Lithium-Metal-Battery-Research that states "the best performing batteries now available are lithium metal and lithium polymer batteries. Lithium ion batteries are preferred because they are potentially cheaper and less toxic than nickel cadmium and nickel metal hydride batteries." So when are they going to get the two departments together and make al Ultra-Lithium Cell. But if the Ultra capacitor can't match the Cell voltage of the Lithium the party stops there. So seperate galvanic cells and capacitors may have to stay seperate.

Posted: **Fri, 13 Aug 2010, 15:55**

The issue I see is that as EV numbers ramp up in the near future with the EVs
produced by large manufacturers, lithium will be in short demand.
You just have to see what Bolivia is up to with the worlds largest supply of Li,
Its not looking good and the energy required to get it into the batteries is mad.
LI from a tech point of view its great but from an ecologist its backwards.
There are some huge hurdles to overcome in any batt technology but the easiest
to apply is one that any country can attain. Lead is a by product of all mining
and mining will never stop, therefore lead is encased in concrete from industry
and ending up in landfill. How can we stop that? create a market for it.
It looks like the Ultrabattery could create this market and although its heavy
the rest of the vehicle needs to get lighter, stronger and easily recycled.
It will never outdo lithium but its a good alternative to NiMh and anything else
that gets held restricted in patents by some greedy conglomerate.
I hope its just been conservative and blasts into the market full steam ahead but
there could be a beta vs vhs war where the inferior in this case established
product kills the better one newcomer eg. Lead batts vs supercapped Lead batts.
It all comes down to big batt companies controlling the market by not accepting.

Posted: **Fri, 13 Aug 2010, 16:54**

In this day and age of battery chemistries much better than lead, I don't really understand the problem they are trying to fix?
Ultra caps will give you high charge and discharge rates, but are very heavy for the amount of energy they contain.
There are lead batteries that will give and take in excess of 40C charge and discharge (Yellowtop, Odyssey, etc)
I think that the ultracap boosters would be far better suited to cheap Li batteries that handle 3-5C rates.

Mark

Posted: **Fri, 13 Aug 2010, 19:40**

I just saw the Catalyst episode with these ultrabatteries, and I agree with Mark. A lower discharge rate lithium battery pack, in parallel with a supercapacitor bank, might be an alternative for those who can't afford a quality pack. Though the price is dropping.

Actually, even in their current form, these 'ultrabatteries' will be good for ICEmobiles, and for EV's supply of batteries. If these batteries can last three or four times longer than a regular lead-acid battery, this will leave more batteries for those of us who still want to use 19th century tech in their EVs (haha). And as someone who's Icemobile starting battery is starting to die (again), if i could get my hands on one of these batteries i wouldn't have to worry about it for a while.

Posted: **Fri, 13 Aug 2010, 19:55**

Thalass wrote: I just saw the Catalyst episode with these ultrabatteries, and I agree with Mark. A lower discharge rate lithium battery pack, in parallel with a supercapacitor bank, might be an alternative for those who can't afford a quality pack. Though the price is dropping.

Actually, even in their current form, these 'ultrabatteries' will be good for ICEmobiles, and for EV's supply of batteries. If these batteries can last three or four times longer than a regular lead-acid battery, this will leave more batteries for those of us who still want to use 19th century tech in their EVs (haha). And as someone who's Icemobile starting battery is starting to die (again), if i could get my hands on one of these batteries i wouldn't have to worry about it for a while.

If they can't afford a "quality pack" they certainly won't be able to afford the Super Capacitors.
Eric

Posted: **Fri, 13 Aug 2010, 23:54**

http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/2981298.htm

this is the link

Posted: **Sat, 14 Aug 2010, 04:19**

I would prefer SkyEnery with supercaps than lead anyday
but if the Ubatt is comparable to an Odyssey but last 3
times longer it does give us an extra option.
Has anyone done a Lifepo4 pack and capacitors?

Posted: **Sat, 14 Aug 2010, 16:37**

AMPrentice wrote:

You just have to see what Bolivia is up to with the worlds largest supply of Li,
Its not looking good and the energy required to get it into the batteries is mad.
LI from a tech point of view its great but from an ecologist its backwards.

Lead is a by product of all mining and mining will never stop, therefore lead is encased in concrete from industry and ending up in landfill.

Clearly you've been getting your extractive industries knowledge from Kevin Rudd.

90% of the extraction of Lithium is done via solar evaporation. Lithium is one of the cleanest mining operations known to man, even the refining of high grade battery lithium.

Lead is not a by-product of all mining.

As an extractive metallurgist, i can tell you that lead is obtained through the mining of the following:

Lead ores,
Copper and zinc mining co-product,
Silver mining co-product,
gold mining by-product - rarely.

Posted: **Sat, 14 Aug 2010, 19:07**

you can get the supercapacitor in aus

at

http://www.glyn.co.nz/Power_Elec_Maxwell.htm

home page for system is

http://www.maxwell.com/index.asp

Posted: **Sat, 14 Aug 2010, 20:10**

Clearly you've been getting your extractive industries knowledge from Kevin Rudd.
90% of the extraction of Lithium is done via solar evaporation.

Your Rudd assumption is quite narrow minded considering I rarely heard "lead" in mining as an issue in his days.
I agree not all mining produces lead yet Oz main exports are Coal, Iron, Lead, Zinc only second to China.
McArthur River mine has perhaps the world's largest zinc, lead and silver mines. Have you heard of McArthur Rivers'
indigenous problems with lead toxidity or even Mount Isa? Much of the present tech industry has lead as
a stabiliser in PVC wiring, toys still from China, protective paints for ships and countless other compounds.
Our land fill and smelting plants have plenty of lead issues, IT waste and any consumer products containing wiring.

A late Foreign Correspondent feature reinforces my statement not to mention Ive lived in Bolivia, Peru,
Chile and Argentina for 11 years understanding their mining industries historical and present implications.
If you have knowledge beyond metals it would be quite easy to see that Bolivia's biggest problem
is how they've been screwed in for 400 years due to mining, their country is totally devastated in so many ways.
Therefore as simple as the extraction of lithium is through water evaporation which is Bolivias biggest problem.
Not only one of the poorest countries in the world they have total lack of water.
They also have poor infrastructure, a poor energy grid, rusted to the ground railway relics that where
last operational 100 years ago, constant civil conflict and lithium only accounts for 1% per litre of what is
in the salar de uyuni's brine. Trucking it forth and back from such high altitudes with no port
makes lithium mining there a totally unsustainable venture.

Not to mention the current indigenous Govt. has adopted legislation will only see local Co-ops offer it to
the world once they extract it. If you had known this you would have seen how far this operation has progressed:
a quantity of 15kg a year or enough for one small EV.
so will suggest you at least update your knowledge of current and historical issues of Bolivia.

Lead is everywhere and there is no escaping it or working against it when
we could be using it as a cheap alternative to monopolised Lithium.

Also few people would know Afghanistan has Lithium reserves that will help the US against Bolivias Anti-usa stance.
There is evidence the “real reason” for the ongoing and escalating U.S. and ally involvement (U.S.A.s longest war)
is due to Lithium reserves they already knew about long before they where announced to the world.
Even both Australian governments keeps sending troops there to stop the Taliban and of us know its BS!.
Just another sneaky U.S. smokescreen to be have a convenient fall back plan in order to marginalize Bolivia’s
lithium deposits as their mafia cant take control its export and put Bolivia into further debt and monocultured misery.

So when I look at lithium batts I cant help but be negative at supporting a product that has severe
consequences to freedom and the evolution of mankind by tricking good tech savvy individuals looking for
alternatives to break out of the hold the big wigs have in our backwards monocultured modern world.

Edit: added links to Foreign Correspondent and others
The Electric range: - http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/
Transcript: - http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2010/s2965757.htm
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... n-lithium/
http://mydd.com/2010/6/14/afghanistan-it-all-makes
There are more just look them up.

Edit2:
http://www.csiro.au/science/Ultra-Battery.html
in case people want to write a letter to ask whats going on?
Im calling them on Monday

Posted: **Sun, 15 Aug 2010, 21:49**

I did wonder why you ignored the Lithium varieties so much Dave.

lifepo4 is 3% lithium by weight, so 15kg of lithium is good for 2-3 cars.

nimh is still very much available, but that chemistry isn't really viable where its warm.

AGM lead acid gives acceptable power, just range and service life leave something to be desired.

AGM is probably a better chemistry than nimh for plug in hybrids.

were not likely to see much in the way of investment in production equipment for chemistries other than lithium while supply is still greater than demand. unfortunately.

Matt

Posted: **Sun, 15 Aug 2010, 22:42**

antiscab wrote: I did wonder why you ignored the Lithium varieties so much Dave.

lifepo4 is 3% lithium by weight, so 15kg of lithium is good for 2-3 cars.

nimh is still very much available, but that chemistry isn't really viable where its warm.

AGM lead acid gives acceptable power, just range and service life leave something to be desired.

AGM is probably a better chemistry than nimh for plug in hybrids.

were not likely to see much in the way of investment in production equipment for chemistries other than lithium while supply is still greater than demand. unfortunately.

Matt

I very seldom enter to the debates as to the merits of which battery technology is superior. However, recent research in Switzerland and Ford in the US hold great hope for the development of Zinc/air batteries. A zinc/air battery would seem to have the potential to be superior in every aspect to lead or even lithium.

Posted: **Mon, 16 Aug 2010, 06:32**

AMPrentice wrote: Clearly you've been getting your extractive industries knowledge from Kevin Rudd.
90% of the extraction of Lithium is done via solar evaporation.

Your Rudd assumption is quite narrow minded considering I rarely heard "lead" in mining as an issue in his days.
I agree not all mining produces lead yet Oz main exports are Coal, Iron, Lead, Zinc only second to China.
McArthur River mine has perhaps the world's largest zinc, lead and silver mines. Have you heard of McArthur Rivers'
indigenous problems with lead toxidity or even Mount Isa? Much of the present tech industry has lead as
a stabiliser in PVC wiring, toys still from China, protective paints for ships and countless other compounds.
Our land fill and smelting plants have plenty of lead issues, IT waste and any consumer products containing wiring.

A late Foreign Correspondent feature reinforces my statement not to mention Ive lived in Bolivia, Peru,
Chile and Argentina for 11 years understanding their mining industries historical and present implications.
If you have knowledge beyond metals it would be quite easy to see that Bolivia's biggest problem
is how they've been screwed in for 400 years due to mining, their country is totally devastated in so many ways.
Therefore as simple as the extraction of lithium is through water evaporation which is Bolivias biggest problem.
Not only one of the poorest countries in the world they have total lack of water.
They also have poor infrastructure, a poor energy grid, rusted to the ground railway relics that where
last operational 100 years ago, constant civil conflict and lithium only accounts for 1% per litre of what is
in the salar de uyuni's brine. Trucking it forth and back from such high altitudes with no port
makes lithium mining there a totally unsustainable venture.

Not to mention the current indigenous Govt. has adopted legislation will only see local Co-ops offer it to
the world once they extract it. If you had known this you would have seen how far this operation has progressed:
a quantity of 15kg a year or enough for one small EV.
so will suggest you at least update your knowledge of current and historical issues of Bolivia.

Lead is everywhere and there is no escaping it or working against it when
we could be using it as a cheap alternative to monopolised Lithium.

Also few people would know Afghanistan has Lithium reserves that will help the US against Bolivias Anti-usa stance.
There is evidence the “real reason” for the ongoing and escalating U.S. and ally involvement (U.S.A.s longest war)
is due to Lithium reserves they already knew about long before they where announced to the world.
Even both Australian governments keeps sending troops there to stop the Taliban and of us know its BS!.
Just another sneaky U.S. smokescreen to be have a convenient fall back plan in order to marginalize Bolivia’s
lithium deposits as their mafia cant take control its export and put Bolivia into further debt and monocultured misery.

So when I look at lithium batts I cant help but be negative at supporting a product that has severe
consequences to freedom and the evolution of mankind by tricking good tech savvy individuals looking for
alternatives to break out of the hold the big wigs have in our backwards monocultured modern world.

Edit: added links to Foreign Correspondent and others
The Electric range: - http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/
Transcript: - http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/content/2010/s2965757.htm
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... n-lithium/
http://mydd.com/2010/6/14/afghanistan-it-all-makes
There are more just look them up.

Edit2:
http://www.csiro.au/science/Ultra-Battery.html
in case people want to write a letter to ask whats going on?
Im calling them on Monday

I didn't know it was all such a conspiracy

If you're interested, send me a PM with your email and I'll send you a heap of information on lithium, the lithium market, companies in production, companies planning to bring on production and the chinese lithium reserves.

Also you need to be aware that the Afgan resources dont exist. The USGS who put out the release said that it has the potential. There is no way that even a fraction of those reserves could have been proven to exist at this stage.

Most of us in the industry fell about laughing at the Afgan mineral potential release. Several sources openly mocked it.

Posted: **Mon, 16 Aug 2010, 06:56**

AMPrentice wrote: Also few people would know Afghanistan has Lithium reserves that will help the US against Bolivia's Anti-USA stance.
There is evidence the “real reason” for the ongoing and escalating U.S. and ally involvement (U.S.A.s longest war) is due to Lithium reserves they already knew about long before they where announced to the world.
Even both Australian governments keeps sending troops there to stop the Taliban and of us know its BS!. Just another sneaky U.S. smokescreen to be have a convenient fall back plan in order to marginalize Bolivia’s
lithium deposits as their mafia cant take control its export and put Bolivia into further debt and monocultured misery.

So when I look at lithium batts I cant help but be negative at supporting a product that has severe consequences to freedom and the evolution of mankind. Edit: added links to Foreign Correspondent and others

I hate to interrupt a good rant, but y'know the report you refer to about mining potential in Afghanistan is actually an old USSR report, and not really considered terribly reliable?

Your conspiracy theory of the US stating the war in Afghanistan to offset lithium production in Bolivia is a really fine example of one of the crazier conspiracy theories!

Australia, has considerable reserves of accessible lithium! We really don't need to go to war in Afghanistan to acquire lithium!

As far as "freedom and the evolution of mankind", It has always amazed me that no matter how crazy, murderous or brutally oppressive a regime is, as long as it's anti-American, you'll find some pathetic leftist fool offering excuses and support. You have no conception of freedom, and would appear to be living proof that evolution would appear to miss some of mankind.

Posted: **Mon, 16 Aug 2010, 21:55**

Matt, sorry I should have stated a small car like the Tesla Roadster considered small
compared to an Aussie Taxi and the Tesla with 53kwh battery x .26 or .3 kg (taking into
account weight per kw) is 15-16kg from what I calculated but could be wrong?

Lithium will be the chemistry no doubt now to power electric vehicles unless a major player
has other plans. Id prefer Zebra batteries but no target of 2000usd or availability yet.

Juk, conspiracy theories are just for kids or Murdoch media Brainwashed consumers.
Tactics for world dominance through financial gains is a fact or life and no secret as
Rockerfeller has stated his intentions and views not to mention other Big Wigs.
He who controls the export and market of valued resources will benefit. Not forgetting
allowed to call the shots for further growth, monopolisation and consumer direction.
If the resources in Afghanistan are a bluff I dont see why even the US and British Geological
Survey keep at it or must it be due to Rudd bumping the info on top of google searches by
mouse mass-clicking and re-loading these sites?

I was sceptical at first to go beyond resources/weapons market potential in Afghanistan
but Lithium as a side-product seemed so obvious in light of their Colorado symposium
on Nuclear and alternative energy back in 1975.

The Chinese lithium push for the future is no surprise as apart from Qinghai? Tibet's
Chabyer supposedly makes Tibet No. 1 in the world for prospective lithium reserves amongst
other resources, according to the China Tibet Info Center. What does your data say?

On the same topic but my reason why Im so anti-chinese lithium batts is that Im a strong
pro-Tibet supporter even pro-Tibet activist when teamed up with my wife's demos and charities.
Does that make me left-winged anti-chinese govt? I would prefer Australias pegmatite
for Li batts instead of any country that exploits/monoculturises the innocent.

Marcobipolar (illusions of greatness)
There are countless reasons to be upset at unimaginable oppression. Bolivia, Gutamala
and many Latin Americans have had enough with entities like Monsanto and the CIA.
Plenty of reasons to have Anti-American military, corporate and installed government
puppets however not Anti-American as you so blatantly and wrongly labelled me.
You seem to have stereotypical views that are Macarthist-like yet it doesnt surprise
when most of the media is biased towards a capitalist cliched approach to wealth.
You refuse to look into Bolivia's history and their reasons against American institutions.
You dont know me personally yet you think you know what Ive been through?
Its like me saying you're a typical unhappy overweight control hungry male much like
your plump greed-driven rhetoric spinning hero, Joe Hockey.

There are also plenty of right winged fools offering excuses and support to screw anything
to steer our race away from sustainable/ethical evolution in order to make a buck instead.

To get back on topic is there a Battery that we could produce locally such as a Lead ultra battery or other?

Posted: **Mon, 16 Aug 2010, 22:37**

AMPrentice wrote: Rockefeller has stated his intentions and views not to mention other Big Wigs.

Which Rockefeller do you refer to? The last relevant Rockefeller died many years ago. Oh, Unless you mean Jay Rockefeller, the Senator from West Virginia, but he's a Democrat Senator, and very much to the left of his party?

There are countless reasons to be upset at unimaginable oppression. Bolivia, Gutamala and many Latin Americans have had enough with entities like Monsanto and the CIA. You refuse to look into Bolivia's history and their reasons against American institutions..

My references concerned your support of the Taliban in Afghanistan.

I would agree, that the history of US government policy and US business practises in South and Central America has not seen the US at it's most enlightened. The actions of the United Fruit Company etc..

But although much of the US involvement has been negative, South Americans must also accept responsibility for their own history of mismanagement and corruption.

Some South American nations have fared better than others, Costa Rica for example. In recent years, Chile has become a model of a progressive democratic economy. Some would Chileans would argue that this was due to the Cromwellian Rule of Pinochet,and the pressure of western, capital, other would say that the economy is due to the resilience of the citizens of Chile.

I support your stance on a Free Tibet, although I fear it's a lost cause, since the concept of moral pressure is unknown to the PRC government.

Its like me saying you're a typical unhappy overweight control hungry male much like your plump greed-driven rhetoric spinning hero, Joe Hockey.
Good heavens! You got it! I didn't know we had met?

To get back on topic is there a Battery that we could produce locally such as a Lead ultra battery or other?

Not really, battery production requires huge volume to achieve unit cost efficiency.

Posted: **Tue, 17 Aug 2010, 03:07**

We both agree South Americans are also to blame

Human nature has greed in every corner of the planet that is always tempted with bribes.

Correction as for the big wigs most of them are bold

)
David Rockefeller (is still alive and significant)
2002-
“We wield over American political and economical institutions. Some even believe we are part of a secret cabal working against the best interests of the United States, characterizing my family and me as ‘internationalists’ and of conspiring with others around the world to build a more integrated global political structure, one world, if you will. If that’s the charge, I stand guilty, and I am proud of it.”

I suppose someone has to take charge globally but humans are always bias.

A shame if a T-105 series or orbital style ultra-battery couldnt be made here.

Posted: **Tue, 17 Aug 2010, 05:51**

AMPrentice wrote: Correction as for the big wigs most of them are bold )David Rockefeller (is still alive and significant) 2002-

Er, you are talking about David Rockefeller Snr, Right?

Well, yeah, David Rockefeller Snr is still alive, but considering he's over 96 years old, the term 'significant' might be a bit hard to credit!!!

Bolivia is a very mismanaged country with nearly 60% of its population below the poverty line. Since 1985 Bolivian governments have pursued disastrous economic policies.

The problems of civil unrest and leftist populism has left this potentially prosperous nation prey for the new economic conquistadors in the form of natural resource exploiters from India and the PRC. Just when you thought after being cheated by the gringo, things couldn't get worse, yep, the guys from the PRC turn up, and prove they can!

It's a shame Bolivia can't learn from Chile.

On the subject of batteries. Mass of Battery manufacture of would not be economic in Australia.

Posted: **Tue, 17 Aug 2010, 20:42**

Obviously yes the founder of the Tri-lateral commission, bilderberg group etc.
He still pushes hes weight around so still considered quite powerful much like
the old days of respecting the elder family members for direction.

Right and left are as bad as each other in that a corrupt capitalist or socialist society
with leaders who are just puppets for bigwigs or corrupt dictators that screw the potential
of every society.

William Lane was a unique Utopian for if he had power in this country instead of choosing
to create utopia elsewhere, we wouldnt have binge drinking issues :0)
Thomas Jefferson saw the future and so did other presidents in a capitalist society
He saw the greed in all institutions especially Banks.
Instead of genocide by dictator forces you have the fat eating themselves to death
and degenerating each generations DNA to oblivion.

Polies should be treated like second chance criminals all on good behaviour bonds,
if they stuff up then they are out without pay, future tax breaks and pensions. Im sure
then the cream will rise to the surface quickly than these morons on our idiot boxes
making all kinds of promises.

Would making ultra-Lifepo4 batts here be unproductive? we have Greenbushes and its an
exponential growing product that will have a market share everywhere.

Posted: **Tue, 17 Aug 2010, 22:37**

AMPrentice wrote: Obviously yes the founder of the Tri-lateral commission, bilderberg group etc.

At 96 years of age? Elder respect? From the Bilderbeurg group? incredible! (I'll drink what ever he's having!)

William Lane was a unique Utopian for if he had power in this country instead of choosing to create utopia elsewhere, we wouldn't have binge drinking issues. "Degenerating each generations DNA to oblivion".

We are talking about William Lane the crank Utopian? William lane mostly famous for his ultra-racist views and ultra-conservative newspaper writer. Oh yes, and sexual predator, racial baiter of Asians, publisher of race hatred, and propaganda of the most virulent and pornographic variety?

Like many other well meaning fanatics lane went though an early phase of extreme Socialism, to Anarchism, to Communist Anarchism,to Utopianism, when all these failed retreated to Ultra-Conservatism Racism, Race hatred and a belief in an anointed (racial based) elite as the only fit persons to rule.

Though out life, his only consistency, was a lifelong dedication to me-ism! (and Teetotalism)

Is this the guy who's virtues you are extolling?!

The problem with these sort of messiahs, is they always claim to act for the 'people'. In fact, because they harbour deep feeling of alienation from the rest of society, as a result of imagined sleights or an inability to accept their own faults, they consider society guilty of not recognising their true greatness! They need to invent a society where they control every aspect, thereby achieving a form of acceptance.

This is not visionary, but insecurity!

William Lane, Adolf Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Charles Manson,etc ... human history is littered with these mentally disturbed doomsday Messiahs.

Like all absolutists they must have an enemy, real or imagined. It's better (and Safer!!) to create imagined or vulnerable enemies, Jews, Asians, Intellectually handicapped, Freemasons, blacks, secret international conspiracies of every variety that only the initiated know about, protocols of Zion, fluoride, aliens in UFO's,...

In the words of Buffalo Sprig field, "Paranoia runs deep, into your heart it will creep.."

Next step, megalomania..

My advice is to relax, enjoy the defects and strengths of your fellow man. Develop a sense of humour! Most politicians, at least in OZ, are seldom evil or really corrupt,(especially federal), just ordinary citizens like you and me, who thought it was so easy to do some good for their fellow citizen before being elected, and discovered the job is really unbelievably difficult, with long hours, relatively low pay, and little or no thanks, loyalty, or respect!

Reform looks easy until you actually try it, then try to deal with hundreds of problems that were not considered or even know at the outset. Suddenly, there are all kinds of considerations.

One mans Justice becomes another's Injustice, become another confusing argument.

After years of hard work, catering to administration in a democratic framework along comes the cynical nit picking journalist to criticise and undermine years of work and careful achievement with an ignorant, trivial, glib, trite, populist remark.

We get the leaders we deserve!

Would making ultra-Lifepo4 batts here be unproductive? we have Greenbushes and its an exponential growing product that will have a market share everywhere

Well we do have the raw material, and we certainly have advanced technology, but that is only one aspect of mass manufacture. The PRC, USA, South Korea, Europe and India have enormous facilities with huge capital investment, that would render an Australian start-up uncompetitive. Ultra-Lifepo4 may be rendered completely redundant be even more advance battery technology, not dependant on lithium.

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CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz

CSIRO Ultrabattery should be made in Oz