Why get an EV?

Open for any sort of non-technical discussion regarding EVs
Goombi
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Why get an EV?

Post by Goombi »

By scralling through teh pages i find a long and tyring exchange of information What some people condiser current news others have heard it before. Tjhis conversation can be endless on and on... we sholg ha ve ah s "EV histoy topic"
But no matter --it is imformative
reading through eithrr coments--- conclussion is aprearing E vehicle over 35k will not sell No matter who makes it even a perfect one.
The only EV's that are going to run on our roads are between 7-15 K Home made conversions. And i really dont give a hoot if some Auto maker comes up with a EV showing off their gleeming shiny bodies wuth estonishing literature.   And i bet its not going to run any faster and further then my Not so shiny or gleaming EVBrumby at 1/4 the price.
These are the facts and no matter how long we are going to discuss and admire Automakers who are preparing us for the ultimate EV-- In the mean time i will be running my brumby the not so shiny one and Not so expensive one. Just imagine-- when you make your own you have no problems with warranty- recalls expensive services --what services? what charter boat?
Lets stick with " Why get a EV" and not why Not.


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Post by marcopolo »

Goombi wrote: Conclussion is aprearing E vehicle over 35k will not sell No matter who makes it even a perfect one.
Actually EV's do sell at over $35K. In fact the only successful EV's available in western markets, sell for far more than $35k. The Toyota marketing model is a very successful template. Toyota introduced the Hybrid models as expensive luxury cars sporting the Prius and Lexus Marque labels. This improved the acceptabilty.

It may come as a surprise to you, but Joe Public is a tad wary of purchasing a homemade conversion! Joe Public LOVES "gleaming shiny bodies with astonishing literature"! YOU need Joe Public because his volume sales will enable battery development and lower prices. His purchases will become the 2nd hand EV of tomorrow that you can modify and improve!

There are also those, who may not be too happy sharing the roads with poorly built home made EV conversions, with dubious insurance. Now this is not to say that every home made EV conversation is of substandard quality. But,the person you sell to, may not be as competent as you!      
Ac Motor wrote:Good back pedal re governments ! It was the Californian government that called for EVs and lead to the likes of the EV1 and RAV4. BTW, I dread a world run by exxon.

I am not backpedaling! In my opinion the proper role of a democratic government is to regulate for the public benefit. The Government should use such power sparingly, and resist the temptation to prohit for any reasons other than preventing citizens harming each other. In my veiw, Goverments have role in business to provide a system of probity and governance, with rules that assist commerce and competitive free enterprise.
Also noted that your line has drifted from the "good commercial practise excuse" first offered to the truth of poor GM management and the EV1 being a victim as much as anything else.


The two are not really mutually exclusive. I think the decision to scrap and crush the EV1 was not a decision which the Ford family would authorised, but a corporate president like Jac Nasser would certainly have endorsed it as prudent to accept the lawyers advice. The GM management at that time was paralysed by failure, insecurity,and the worst sort of bureaucratic leadership. This is usually a fault of governments, but it affects all large institutions. Corporations are only as talented as the people elected to run them. Sometimes the weakest decisions are those made by 'consultative committees'!
Good point re the conversion vs ground up. So the imiev will fail as well ? History will tell.
Yeah, the iMEV seems to be a peculiar 'something for every one' approach. It is heavily influenced by Shah Aggasi's 'Better Place concept. I'm not certain that isn't just some 8 track sideline.

That raises a point that many have called for. Just produce a common model in basic EV form with today's EV parts and put it to the market. i.e. a conversion similar to the better ones that are done in back yards. (for the die hard enthusiasts and rock stars !)
No excuses now... so why is it not done (well other than tesla) ? Because the vehicle industry is dead scared of the market interest. (that is a statement , not a question) OK, I'm getting the idea you will make an excuse for that !
Well, you make a good point. I think that is more or less what GM's Volt is attempting. But for a major automaker, this sort of proposition is not easy. Ford has backed a relatively small maker in Smith electrics and is producing high quality commercial EV's.

But that doesn't really answer your question. Try to imagine you are the head of a large automaker. When commencing to build an EV there are a host of considerations the passionate enthusiast happily ignores. An automaker must first raise a tremendous amount of money to finance the production run. This money must be taken from other, more certain, projects. The automaker must ensure the product can be serviced and provided with spare parts for 15 years. (law). the model must comply with all safety regs. The investment in workforce, factory, production line, engineering, R&D, advertising, promotion, insurance, availability of consumer finance, dealerships, second hand value. Will it detract from the sales of the basic ICE model? Lastly the model must sell in sufficient Numbers to return a profit. BIG GAMBLE!

The only automaker to come close to what you suggest if the Smith/Ford or Australia's own Ron Blade in Castlemaine with his deal with Rental/Hyundai to obtain gliders.   
Good observation that our system may now be stifling the innovation we really need. So we leave that to China and continue selling them our coal !
Yep, you may well be correct. From my travels in the PRC, I have observed that PRC EV pioneers are not highly trained, brilliant university graduates, but wild eyed and sometimes eccentric ex-farm boys. Self-taught ex-mechanics and tinkerers.It was just these sort of people who built the early internal combustion vehicles in the west!

The Reva started out a crappy little car, but who knows what it may become? We may have over-regulated and certainly over litigated our own manufactures out of risk innovation.

Ok, but cars aren't the only EV's. GE used to make an excellent ride on mower. Today only Jacobsen produce a huge EV golf course ride on mower. I believe an electric ride on mower would be very successful. As would a farm runabout. All these products would be very useful in acclimatising people to an EV future, do you agree?      

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Post by Squiggles »

marcopolo wrote:
Try to imagine you are the head of a large automaker. An automaker must first raise a tremendous amount of money to finance the production run. This money must be taken from other, more certain, projects. The automaker must ensure the product can be serviced and provided with spare parts for 15 years. (law). the model must comply with all safety regs. The investment in workforce, factory, production line, engineering, R&D, advertising, promotion, insurance, availability of consumer finance, dealerships, second hand value. Will it detract from the sales of the basic ICE model? Lastly the model must sell in sufficient Numbers to return a profit. BIG GAMBLE!


You are correct to a point, much of the cost can be amortised across a wider model range if the company uses a common platform. There is no reason at all that lets say Toyota could not take a Corolla with all its existing design and tooling and replace the ICE with Electric. In fact if it were not for the battery cost I would imagine it would be much cheaper to produce. Yes there would be design costs but not much more than changing the motor from a 1600cc 4 cylinder to a 2500 V6.

Interestingly design and tooling costs must be much less of an issue today than it was 20 years ago. Now days many cars sold here in Australia (particularly some Asian makes) have significant changes from year to year and major changes about every 2 years. In years past a model might have run for five or more years with only cosmetic changes.
Last edited by Squiggles on Tue, 09 Mar 2010, 15:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Squiggles »

I bet the car companies are worried about the reduced spare parts sales if EVs become popular. No spark plugs, oil filters, fuel filters, air filters, radiator hoses, radiators, fan belts, timing belts, exhaust systems, ignition coil packs, engine oil.......

What would a service be, check the brakes, clean the windscreen, fill the washer bottle....you would hardly have time to drink the complimentary coffee while you wait.

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Post by Goombi »

Markopolo --- blah blah--- I was talkng about FOLKS EV nor rich man's toy for show off only. OK One question -- do you intend or have you made a EV conversion? You can say many thinks I think you should use your knowlwge and resourses for EV folks vehicle promotion Every home made EV that goes on road is a little virus that will infiltrate others this virus is about the thought and it will spread. I am in the forefront and i know and I promote and i sell and i help.. come elong Marcopolo and give up just travelling on chat room hoping to discover the secret of Spaghetti

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Post by marcopolo »

Squiggles wrote:   You are correct to a point, much of the cost can be amortised across a wider model range if the company uses a common platform. There is no reason at all that lets say Toyota could not take a Corolla with all its existing design and tooling and replace the ICE with Electric. In fact if it were not for the battery cost I would imagine it would be much cheaper to produce. Yes there would be design costs but not much more than changing the motor from a 1600cc 4 cylinder to a 2500 V6.


There are some engineering factors, weight distribution, etc. I don't see Toyota's marketing department agreeing to sell a $50,000 Corolla, even if EV! The real problem for cars is still range and charging problems. These are especially true for people who live in apartments etc. BP, offered to make available charging stations for Ev's at service stations but the government moved rapidly to prevent that on "safety grounds'! Odd, because BP's insurer had no problem with the idea!

For personal transport the EV still faces the problem of being unable to compete with the ICE (especially diesel) on Speed, Range, and Purchase price.

It is for these reasons I see EV commercial vehicles becoming successful before cars.    

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Post by Squiggles »

marcopolo wrote: There are some engineering factors, weight distribution, etc.
Trivial
I don't see Toyota's marketing department agreeing to sell a $50,000 Corolla, even if EV!
Why would it $50K when the cost of components and assembly (save for the battery) would be lower than ICE. When you consider that assembly today includes a complete engine front suspension sub assembly it would be a case of using assembly 'A' or assembly 'B' in the production line.
The real problem for cars is still range and charging problems.
Yes.
BP, offered to make available charging stations for Ev's at service stations but the government moved rapidly to prevent that on "safety grounds'! Odd, because BP's insurer had no problem with the idea!

You are not suggesting government interference are you?


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Post by Squiggles »

Goombi wrote: give up just travelling on chat room hoping to discover the secret of Spaghetti


The secret is that spaghetti was invented by those nasty chinese folk!!

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Post by Goombi »

And Marko Polo was the importer

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Post by acmotor »

There is a lot of waffle there as the indefencable is defended re the killing of the EV1. I do think the topic has been done to death over the years.
Yet, a glimpse of the truth, as I already mentioned...
marcopolo wrote: ..... Will it detract from the sales of the basic ICE model? .....      


Yep. My words were more direct "dead scared" of the cosequence.

I share the opinion that a standard model run off the line as an EV (conversion like) is actually (has been for years) very doable. Man if Goombie (no disrespect intended) can do it then don't give me the too hard line. That would be simply another economist's excuse.

Man if I were the head of a large automaker (your suggestion so my reply), I'd not be listening to the dreary oil fuelled rationale of marco. I'd have the guts to plan a bright automotive future based on EVs. If the ship sunk then at least I'd die fighting rather than splat on the bonnet of a hummer. Image
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Post by marcopolo »

Squiggles wrote: Why would it $50K when the cost of components and assembly (save for the battery) would be lower than ICE. When you consider that assembly today includes a complete engine front suspension sub assembly it would be a case of using assembly 'A' or assembly 'B' in the production line.
You are assuming that the automaker could sell sufficient numbers to make a production run achieve unit cost efficiency. You are also assuming that the cost of the battery is not a factor. If this was the case then, the you are correct. The assembly of EV's would be equal if not cheaper than the ICE equivalent.

I have had the privilege of observing three mass EV manufacturers. The assembly process is considerably less complex than ICE production. (no Hazchem for one).
You are not suggesting government interference are you?
Yes.
The secret is that spaghetti was invented by those nasty chinese folk!!


There you go again! Spaghetti was popular in Southern Italy more than 200 years before Marcoplo made his famous journey to China. In fact a form of pasta was eaten by the early Romans!
Goombi wrote: Markopolo --- blah blah--- I was talking about FOLKS EV nor rich man's toy for show off only.
Nor was I! The truth is, 'FOLKS' don't want underpowered, inefficient, limited range, unreliable EV's. If they did, they would be queueing up at Ron Blades door. (and Vectrix would be successful)! I don't think that the production of commercial EV's is a rich mans toy! Just as the production of Buses is hardly a toy to show off? These are FOLKS EV's. You also ignore a lot of the problems FOLKS have to own and operate an EV. Like most people who claim to represent FOLKS, you really mean just yourself.

Cutting edge? Tell me the component in EV manufacture that you invented? Buying existing technology and assembling it in existing technology, is not innovation.

This is not to say that homebuilt EV's have no place. I have invested considerable time and expense in researching EV technology. The experience of members of this forum is extremely valuable. But I was replying to the possibility of the production of a mass manufactured EV. This requires a very different set of skills than just engineering. Anyone can own and milk a pet cow, but running a commercial Dairy farm is a very different matter! The EV1 was not made by an amateur, but GM.

Oh, and I am an admirer of Ron Blades BEV production. I will confess, I was one of his early detractors. But rapid advances in battery technology and his engineering skill have proved me wrong. I congratulate his efforts. My only concern is that he will be overtaken by mainstream manufacturers with better and cheaper products.

However, I guess you are right, this thread has wandered off its original track, but that's the nature of debates.


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Post by Goombi »

acmotor I consider your remark as a high compliment (Gee i didn't think you cared) lol lol
"WHY GET AN EV" This conversation has slowly taken turn and saying
"WHY NOT GET AN EV"
I LIKE TO BRING IT BACK TO THE ORIGINAL POST
marcopolo. Since you have no ambition to make a conversion or talk about it. I would like you to refrain from talking against conversions and EV,
This AEVA is made of all types of people that have a interest in EV's There are engineers here school kids Uni students Mum and dad retiries
pensioners rich and poor they all have one common goal to make and or design EV may it be a bike -trike car or 4x4. All undertand that there is no need for high tech miracle to make EV that is why there is such an interest and input for conversions.
No one knows who you are or where you live. this atitude shows some disrespect for the people on this chat.. and i say no more

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Post by Goombi »

Nor was I! The truth is, 'FOLKS' don't want underpowered, inefficient, limited range, unreliable EV's markopolo:
as though you would know what they are like how efficient-- how powerful - how reliable and the distance is increasing.. --

I have a feeling I will put you in slot number 2 ---and flush

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Post by acmotor »

A bit strong goombi .... but I share the frustration !

marco, don't be offended by us. Do please hear our side of the equation though. The debate is fun and rather important to hear some of the extremes. (we decide for ourselves which they are ! Image )

Agreed on the level of performance of EVs needing to satisfy.
That is not the be all and end all though. Many people will accept satisfactory performance at this stage of the development since there is the self made/ environmental/ independence/ running cost factors that go well beyond the simplistic glossy go fast that you refer to.
This must also be the case even in the ICE world given that a hyundai getz, daewoo matiz etc sell !!!!!
GM et.al. would not be in trouble if all you needed was a V8 and a gloss black paint job.
Extreme ? maybe, but so is the thinking that people only want one thing.
I have often said that the big manufacturers mistake was thinking that they actually knew what the customer wanted. They were more inclined to design and TELL the customer what they wanted.

marco, the Italians called it spaghetti probably after borrowing from China who had been into that food type for about 5000 years that records show. Maybe not your namesake who stole it ? however informed sources on the web say it was.
What has that got to do with EVs ? Oh yeah, China may export them to the rest of the world ! Image
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Post by Goombi »

Since the 14th century and importing spaggs to venice and later Italy there was a a new breed of people there   and they are still there   they are all Tenors and every single one thinks he is Caruso I wouldn't bet that it was due to the spaghetti that Marko Polo imported to italy

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Post by marcopolo »

acmotor wrote: Agreed on the level of performance of EVs needing to satisfy. That is not the be all and end all though. Many people will accept satisfactory performance at this stage of the development since there is the self made/ environmental/ independence/ running cost factors that go well beyond the simplistic glossy go fast that you refer to. This must also be the case even in the ICE world given that a hyundai getz, daewoo matiz etc sell !!!!!GM et.al. would not be in trouble if all you needed was a V8 and a gloss black paint job.
Extreme ? maybe, but so is the thinking that people only want one thing.
I have often said that the big manufacturers mistake was thinking that they actually knew what the customer wanted. They were more inclined to design and TELL the customer what they wanted.
This is very true. But the question is, and as I have already said, for the enthusiast or home builder the fun is all in the construction and the satisfaction of creating your own masterpiece. But that was not the context of the debate. To mass manufacture an Ev which can be sold to the public, the question must be, how many consumers are there to justify my production run. Vectrix has many very passionate and loyal fans. But the truth is, that no matter how noble the endeavour, the first consumer EV, Vectrix, collapsed with over $800 million dollars of other peoples money.
Marco, the Italians called it spaghetti probably after borrowing from China who had been into that food type for about 5000 years that records show. Maybe not your namesake who stole it ? however informed sources on the web say it was.


Being of Italian heritage, I strongly resent the popular misconception that pasta was imported from China. The history of pasta is based on Duran Wheat. This is just one of those historical myths like Christopher Columbus sailed west because everyone thought the world was flat. A hundred years before Columbus, Dante, wrote the Inferno, the whole point of which was the world was round. 200 years earlier Pope Gregory had a large Globe in his Study. Like bread, dried types of Noodles, Pasta etc, have been invented by many different civilisations to provide food preservation. (somewhere there's probably a Mongolian grinding his teeth and telling his mate that we stole the secret of beer production.)

Goombie, sorry, I am not a tenor or any other sort of racial stereotype.

The title of this thread reads, 'Why get an EV', not 'Why home build an EV". Amateur EV construction is interesting, but so is the development of the EV industry. Especially the adaptation of commercial vehicles to EV status. No one, certainly not me, is preventing you from expressing your views about constructing your own EV.

But if we wanted to discuss those matters we would go to the appropriate thread!

Not everyone has the time, facilities, or technical knowledge to build an EV. This thread debates the type, feasibility and nature of commercially available EV's that will eventually become available to the general public to buy, or get, an EV instead of an ICE.

Squiggles and ACmotor, believe that the type of low cost, crude, but improving PRC products, will provide the answer. I do not. I believe the future of EV's will come from high quality western designed, commercial vehicles. Both theories have merit, only time will tell! In fact like most developments, the answer will be a combination of both.

I am only to happy, in due course, to post my own EV experiences on the appropriate thread.

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Post by Squiggles »

Still slightly off topic, I think important just the same.

Have a look through these forums, there are many very talented people involved in these independent experiments. They freely offer their concepts & designs to all who are interested, others willingly offer criticisms, advice, corrections. The result is independent development free from commercial or political restraint. It will culminate in a significant amount of real world trials. There will be failures, there will be successes a lot of pain and hopefully many EV grins.

The big point is that in the end we are going to have a considerable amount of real world data, not censored by any vested interests. This data will be very valuable in terms of convincing the ordinary folk that EVs are viable (if indeed they are). If it so happens that it is proven that you can take any reasonable vehicle and convert it to Electric for under $20,000 it surely will send the message that commercially produced EVs should not cost the earth.

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Post by acmotor »

Well said Squiggles. Image

I quite admit I'm into converted EVs and will accept their present standard since I can't buy a commercial EV.   Kinda ends the discusion on that point for the near future !
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Post by marcopolo »

Squiggles wrote: If it so happens that it is proven that you can take any reasonable vehicle and convert it to Electric for under $20,000 it surely will send the message that commercially produced EVs should not cost the earth.
Very true. But can you? The most successful Australian commercial converter, BEV, charges $55,000 for what is essentially a two seater, second hand Hyundai Getz.

I guess the point I am making is, what does 'not cost the earth' mean?
It would be interesting to see know exactly what the cost of a glider is to a major car manufacturer, add the cost of engineering to adapt the changed dynamics of the EV, and then the EV components, spares, and warranty. This would provide you with a base price. How much would have to be increased to cover the cost of marketing, finance etc ..

Now the rule of thumb seems to suggest that an EV form a commercial glider adds 3-4 times to the price. It maybe much easier to absorb the EV costs as a percentage of a luxury model, just as Toyota has with hybrid, than a base model. I understand your passion to produce a 'Peoples Car' but how feasible I am not sure. The acceptance of the VOLT, and the BYD CODA, maybe some indication.

That is why I think the first success of EV's will be light commercials.The purchasing decision of a Commercial vehicle is based on a comparison of amortised operating cost, not initial purchase price.
(10% saving on GST etc..)
My own belief is that cost of EV's could be reduced considerably with really large scale production of the battery. It is unfortunate that because EV power storage is split into several competing technologies, this prevents significant unit cost savings in manufacture that could be achieved by focusing on one Superior battery type.

An interesting factor in the EV debate is would the price of electric power dramatically increase if there was a really significant increase in usage due to EV's? Would AGL etc, become the new EXXON? A study by BP
came to the conclusion that it is much easier to examine the price factors in Electricity production, than oil.

However, the modelling commissioned by the Power Utilities(surprise, surprise) concluded that a significant price hike would be required if EV's became popular and demand increased!.

We live in interesting, if cynical, times!

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Post by marcopolo »

acmotor wrote: I quite admit I'm into converted EVs and will accept their present standard since I can't buy a commercial EV.   Kinda ends the discusion on that point for the near future !


But if you could, what price (premium)would you pay to purchase a 4 seater EV, with the same features as its ICE equivelent? (ignoring range, and speed).

I would be interested in what sort of commercially made EV would attract you? What would you pay? What specs would you require to make an EV your only vehicle? What support would you need(charging posts etc)?

I would also be interested to compare that decision with what specifications you would require in a work (light commercial) EV? What premium would you pay over the ICE?

Have you ever thought of buying a Vectrix, Volt, Blade Electron?


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Post by antiscab »

marcopolo wrote:
Squiggles wrote: If it so happens that it is proven that you can take any reasonable vehicle and convert it to Electric for under $20,000 it surely will send the message that commercially produced EVs should not cost the earth.
Very true. But can you? The most successful Australian commercial converter, BEV, charges $55,000 for what is essentially a two seater, second hand Hyundai Getz.
the blade uses a fairly expensive drive train (AC24LS = US$5.5k) and had to develope their own BMS due to some disagreement with most established BMS manufacturers.

They also have to crash test every 20th unit, as its a conversion rather than outright manufacturing.
marcopolo wrote: It is unfortunate that because EV power storage is split into several competing technologies, this prevents significant unit cost savings in manufacture that could be achieved by focusing on one Superior battery type.


the large format LiFePO4 cell prices haven't moved in 2 years.
they currently cost US$345/kwh or ~US$7000 for a pack good enough for 100 miles.

if there is still cost reductions to be had from increase in scale, the increase would have to be significant indeed.

i wonder how much per unit the RAV4EV cost to make, given the tooling was already there for the ICE RAV4.

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Post by Squiggles »

antiscab wrote:
the blade uses a fairly expensive drive train (AC24LS = US$5.5k) and had to develope their own BMS due to some disagreement with most established BMS manufacturers.

the large format LiFePO4 cell prices haven't moved in 2 years.
they currently cost US$345/kwh or ~US$7000 for a pack good enough for 100 miles.

Matt


This is where I think the car companies are getting at us. I know that if you want to buy a replacement transmission for my car you will pay $7000+ if you assume the motor is $5000 (no idea in fact) there is $12000. That has to be a fair part of the cost of electric motor + batteries.

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Post by Peter C in Canberra »

I think another problem is that the car manufacturers are scared of bringing out a car that is not extremely good and completely without foibles. None wants to be left behind but none wants to be remembered for being first with a lemon. Consequently they are like the penguins that jostle at the edge of the ice till one falls in and doesn't get eaten by a seal. Then they all dive in.
I am happy with my converted car with LiFePO4 battery and DC motor. I don't mind that there are minor losses through the original gearbox since this was a convenient way to make the car work. It doesn't do regeneration since that is harder to do with an affordable DC motor. Ideally I would have each of the small improvements in performance that would come from regen, more direct transmission, AC rather than DC but to do that would have been a lot more trouble for me as a home converter. Any commercial car would have to have an AC motor and regen through a dedicated transmission. I would expect it of a well designed commercial product rather than a retrofit. I don't think it would be that hard to do. I'm sure the car companies can do it and they know they can do it but they are all at that jostling stage.
One way to test the water will be to initially only make electric cars available on lease for the first few years. That way they can pull them all out if there is some problem, real or perceived.
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Real Name: Peter Campbell
Location: Canberra

Why get an EV?

Post by Peter C in Canberra »

marcopolo wrote:
Squiggles wrote: If it so happens that it is proven that you can take any reasonable vehicle and convert it to Electric for under $20,000 it surely will send the message that commercially produced EVs should not cost the earth.
Very true. But can you? The most successful Australian commercial converter, BEV, charges $55,000 for what is essentially a two seater, second hand Hyundai Getz.


The cost is $48K with the 5 year new car warrantee from Hyundai on their bits and 3 years from Blade on their bits. The back seat is retained though perhaps the middle seat belt is removed because the number of occupants is listed as 4, not 5. On the Blade web site there are some second hand, presumably 2 years old, serviced and upgraded with full 3 years warrantee for $35K. http://bev.com.au/buyback/used-electrons/

So, $35K for a 4 seater second hand Getz, not $55K for a 2 seater second hand as suggested.

Peter C.
Daihatsu charade conversion 2009-18, Mitsubishi iMiEV 2013-2019, Holden Volt 2018-2019, Hyundai Kona 2019-present on the ACT's 100% renewable electricity.

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evric
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Why get an EV?

Post by evric »

Good on you Peter.
Eric
Prius Plug-in Conversion: http://www.evplus.com.au ...Holden Barina EV: http://www.evric.kestar.com.au

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