Obama invests in batteries for EVs

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coulomb
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Obama invests in batteries for EVs

Post by coulomb »

Finally, a real investment in EV-related technology:

http://www.energymatters.com.au/index.p ... cle_id=541

Where's our contribution to the research effort, Peter Garrett?

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Obama invests in batteries for EVs

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Now come on that's not fare, Peter has bills to pay as well!
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Obama invests in batteries for EVs

Post by coulomb »

Heh, yes indeed.

Calcars has a rather different view:

http://www.calcars.org/calcars-news/1068.html

They feel that the smaller players missed out.
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Post by EV2Go »

Squiggles wrote: Now come on that's not fare, Peter has bills to pay as well!
Wasn't he cutting some kind of uranium deal a little while ago? that should take care of his bill.

Environment??? sorry can't hear you over the sound of this money!
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Obama invests in batteries for EVs

Post by Benonymous »

Why on earth Peter Garrett joined the ALP instead of the greens I'll never know! This is a good initiative from the yanks but just watch China. They won't announce any state funding for this kind of research and development, they'll just DO it. If there is any country in the world that realises the finite nature of oil reserves, its them. The Chinese have practically no domestic oil production and they will want to keep the ball rolling re growth. Transport is a key factor in economic growth.

The best we'll be able to do here is maybe invent some stuff at the CSIRO or privately. These developments will then be sold off to the highest bidder to cover costs. Those inventions and breakthroughs that are good enough to be marketable will be snapped up by the big fish or just copied with impunity by an Asian country.

I don't want to be a doom and gloom merchant but my feeling is, when there are electric production cars available to buy, many will come from China. They almost certainly won't be manufactured locally. They most definitely won't be manufactured by any kind of local start-up in particular!
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Obama invests in batteries for EVs

Post by Squiggles »

Benonymous wrote: Why on earth Peter Garrett joined the ALP instead of the greens I'll never know!


A little joke yes?

I believe you are close to the truth with what you say though, China is not held back by the capitalist/privately funded government system that is strangling much of the 'western' world. Their ethics and quality may be questionable, their effort and determination are not.
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Obama invests in batteries for EVs

Post by acmotor »

Hmmm, tip $1M or more into battery research at each university in Oz and I think you would get a result. New battery technologies are for new brains.
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Post by AMPrentice »

With all the fluke and leftover lead from out industry
and with all the batteries installed in homes for solar
panels and used in all auto vehicles wouldnt it make sense
to at least have a local lead acid battery manufacturer?
Instead of cash handouts, investing in a local battery factory
to make lead acid batteries for solar, cars and yellow top
like batteries for EVs would create plenty of jobs and reduce
countless tons of lead suspended in concrete blocks in garbage tips.
The same factory could also license Zebra battery architecture
to be produced locally to power a zillion different machines.
We have plenty of Lead, aluminiun and salt.
If light strong chassis could be designed based on the Opel Maxx
that is a lightweight strong extruded alloy frame base with unlimited
body designs that could just be fitted on top.
Although lead acid is heavy, alloy frames and composite bodies with
refined aerodynamics will counteract it.
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Post by Richo »

acmotor wrote: Hmmm, tip $1M or more into battery research at each university in Oz and I think you would get a result. New battery technologies are for new brains.


Even if we did get a result the government will still sell us out to Asia. Image

Ultrabattery

So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Obama invests in batteries for EVs

Post by AMPrentice »

Richo wrote:
acmotor wrote: Hmmm, tip $1M or more into battery research at each university in Oz and I think you would get a result. New battery technologies are for new brains.


Even if we did get a result the government will still sell us out to Asia. Image

Ultrabattery


I think this ultrabattery is too big yet to be used for a HEV.
Its perfect for rail and tanks from what I can gather.
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Post by Richo »

No - my point was that even if the government gave uni's some money for research we would probably get little benifit here except importing a finished product from asia.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
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Obama invests in batteries for EVs

Post by Thalass »

That's what we do in Australia. We dig stuff out of the ground, sell it at a discount price to some other country, then buy the finished product at an inflated price. Its the same with ideas and inventions. There's no local support for that sort of thing, so they end up going overseas. It's a terrible shame.
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Post by acmotor »

But that is fine in a way.

We're going to import our vehicles anyway. They might as well be high technology EVs, even if we had to supply the R&D.
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Post by Thalass »

It's a business model that has worked in the past, but I still think it's better to do it all here. Even if each step is used for different products, and most things get shipped overseas for part of their manufacturing process. It just seems silly to rely to totally on other countries for everything. From a practical standpoint, we might not be friends with these countries forever.
The other point of view is that how much environmental advantage is there in a car that might get a bajillion miles per gallon equivalent, when it has to first have the raw materials transported in a diesel ship, and then the finished product is re-transported across the globe for weeks on end.

I dunno, my inner survivalist would rather we build our own EVs in Australia, and power them from our own individual power sources at home. Then the price of oil can get stuffed! hahaha
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Obama invests in batteries for EVs

Post by Squiggles »

It's a business model that has worked for the large multinationals since inception. It has never worked for Australia's economy.

Here's how it works. You grow some tomatoes in your garden, say it cost you $1. You sell them to your neighbour for $1.01 and he makes 10 bottles of tomato sauce from them at a total production cost of $1.20. Now you want tomato sauce so you buy two bottles from your neighbour for $2.25 each (including tax), and go out and get a second job to make ends meet.

Unfortunately everyone else in the community (except the neighbour) is also looking for work to support their families.

Who is happy, the neighbour because he is getting rich off your raw materials and the government because they are lining their pockets without doing a damn thing.

There is a simple concept Australia (with encouragement from an endless stream of deadbeat governments) has completely forgotten. It is called "Value adding". .......gets of high horse....goes to work.....
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Post by bga »

Intersting point about O.S. dependency.

The move to globalisation has some very serious risks, that are almost never articulated by the critics. Thalass' raises the essential issue, that of critical supply arising from diagreement or conflict.
However, I'm more concerned about the geographic concentration of supply, this can be disrupted by environmental as well as political events.

Another issue is the drive to globalisation which is controlled by the economists definition of 'efficiency'. As near as I can tell, the ideal efficient system in the these terms is one that is completely utilised, which leaves it vulnerable to even small disruptions.

Electricity generating and distribution systems are an example of this at a local scale. In WA, there are many suburban diesel or natural gas generators that are used to supply peaks because this demand has out-stripped the centralised supply. This may not be all that bad however, as the transmission costs for this electricity are very low.

I think that this gets us to the mobile battery, err..umm, electric car, and initiatives such as V2G that have been proposed to reduce the peak demand issues in California.

Big, cheap batteries would help.

Diversification of battery technologies would be good from an economic resillience viewpoint and that of resource consumption. What's the likelihood that large scale production of Lion (nothing to do with holden *sigh*) batteries will cause a resource problem that drives the price up enough to make them uneconomic.

Could houses be equipped with PVs, >batteries< and inverters, allowing them to be more off-grid, reducing the demands on (and sensitivity to) the local distribution system?

[Edit: typo and:
With all these deadbeat governments, the market for prime throwing tomatoes has never been higher Image ]
Last edited by bga on Tue, 18 Aug 2009, 05:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by acmotor »

Wow, this has gone from EV batteries to solving the world's problems ! Image
Flattening out power demand peaks by using EV batteries will never take off IMVHO. Why ? because it is a strategic nightmare that puts the power in the hands of the people. (A bit like domestic PVs). Just imagine the media driven public objecting to govt. / industry with their EV power switches ? Image
A bit like the critical supply that bga talked about, just the intranational version.

BTW, I though Lithium was already un-ecomonic ? I've yet to see even the most massaged numbers show a lithium BEV to be anything other than largely oil free. Definitely not yet economic. If we need diversification of battery technologies it is to explore the technologies and allow them to compete in their own right.

Re Oz vs OS car manufacture....
When you consider the protectionism via duty/tarrif and the handouts given to Oz manufacturers over the years, I don't think a simple tomatoes example paints the whole picture.
I'm all for Oz value adding, but remember the cleaver people make the money, not the shop floor workers (or the Oz branch).
Which one do you want to be ? Image

edit:it was the keyboard officer, it made me do it !
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Post by Squiggles »

You are right about car manufacturing, it does not make sense for Australia to manufacture the car, our market is way too small to be economic. However we are very capable of making component parts for the cars. A Queensland firm used to supply springs to Mercedes.

It is all about value adding, don't sell coal, iron ore and limestone...sell billet steel instead!
Don't build cars, sell component parts, remove taxes on imported cars, let the people buy better cars cheaper and they will spend the money they save in other parts of the economy!! Stop bowing to the unions and propping up a failing industry. It is not rocket science.

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Post by Squiggles »

bga wrote:
Another issue is the drive to globalisation which is controlled by the economists definition of 'efficiency'.
I studied economics as part of my masters degree, what I learned is that most economic theory is a load of hogwash, lots of half arsed theories and very little reality. Worst of all the economists all learned from the same text book so there is very little variety of thought.

Could houses be equipped with PVs, >batteries< and inverters, allowing them to be more off-grid, reducing the demands on (and sensitivity to) the local distribution system?
Yes.

[Edit: typo and:
With all these deadbeat governments, the market for prime throwing tomatoes has never been higher Image ]
Image
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Post by vince »

Line from a movie"I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore".I can't remember the name of the movie but I'm sure the response was universal.Is this a problem that needs to be resolved?Yes but as long as we sit on our butts and complain that our polititions aren't making it happen,its never going to happen.What we need is a Global Tribunal run by intelligent, humanitarian and charitable (unpaid,unbiased) and moral people to represent all the people of the world with the ability (power)to put into action with the least amount of delay to these actions.This could all be utilised via our new tool the internet in an open global forum so all can read without obstruction.
Something like the unitednations now have in place only NOT!
I don't think its a question of the need of a revolution decision-I think it is already here perculating in the background within the internet!!!
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Post by Squiggles »

vince wrote: This could all be utilised via our new tool the internet in an open global forum so all can read without obstruction.


If we keep talking like this there will soon be some obstruction...and a knock at the door Image

I think the last politician to look past his own ambition was Mikhail Gorbachev, where is he now though. It won't happen again, at least not in my lifetime.


Hmm, the movie, some news reader tells his audience to run to the window and yell out "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore"...thinking....Network. Crap movie from memory.
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Post by vince »

Yeah,it gets frustrating sometimes wanting to be able to do more so I think the line in the movie gave us a chance to laugh at ourselves when we gat that way,as far as remembering anything else about the movie I don't.
However, I can see a lot of good can come from the internet.Nice chatting with you.
As for Gorby if my memory hasn't failed me, He is a Hero!
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Post by AMPrentice »

Yet I still dont see why quality lead acid batteries couldnt be made here for all vehicles (ice and EV), solar applications or any other requirement instead of using Chinese made batteries.

Ill gladly use yellow (and green :) tops made in Australia at a higher cost but subsidized by the government for those willing have an EV.

Imagine all that toxic lead instead of going into land filling with concrete powering our every need. Also the jobs for making, distribution, research and sales.
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Post by antiscab »

most of the lead is recycled.
recycled lead is rather valuable, hence the high recycling rate.

*none* of it goes to landfill currently.

To get a similar service life out of lead that you can get with lithium, your BMS has to be *more* complicated.
It has to be at the cell level, and you have to keep track of the secondary reactions.
To fully charge a lead acid pack (and balance it) takes several hours.
This is charging from 80%-100%.
The incremental production cost of a good quality lead acid battery is higher than that of a cheap large format lithium battery (thundersky/sky energy/etc).

The current crop of LiFePO4 are stil expensive because enough people pay the "going rate", and the factories are trying to recoup the production capital in 2-3 years, rather than the 20 or so for the lead acid production lines.

To throw money at more lead acid battery production capacity is to through good money after bad (IMO)

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Post by Squiggles »

If the manufacturers of LiFePO4 cells sold a ~13.8V 100Ah replacement for the current Pb/H2SO4 type we now use for something under $250 I reckon the market would expand very rapidly.

There are other things happening out there as well.
http://www.fireflyenergy.com/index.php? ... Itemid=100

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