MagniWorks an option?

Open for any sort of non-technical discussion regarding EVs
EVangelical
Noobie
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun, 05 Jul 2009, 23:57
Real Name: Erik Leipoldt
Location: Perth

MagniWorks an option?

Post by EVangelical »

I am intrigued with a sense of this cannot be true in finding something about a magnetic motor which generates more power than it takes in (yes I know, laws of physics violation) It was featured on Sky television that two Australian inventors had this thing working and had an international patent application in for it. Plans are being sold online. Does anyone know of it (Google MagniWorks) and has any thoughts on application in EV's IF the whole thing stands up to scrutiny?

Thanks!
EV or not EV is no longer a question

Tritium_James
Senior Member
Posts: 683
Joined: Wed, 04 Mar 2009, 17:15
Real Name: James Kennedy
Contact:

MagniWorks an option?

Post by Tritium_James »

These things are invariably bogus. The people pushing it may be fraudulent, or they may genuinely believe that their device works, but it almost always comes down to measurement error.

Since this type of device usually involves large, short pulses of power to drive the input motor (they are usually a BLDC variant) it is easy to connect up a power meter that is expecting sinusoidal waveforms and have it report an incorrect reading. So you have two identical meters, one on the input, one on the output, and the output is sinusoidal and reads correctly, the input is choppy and reads bogus. Output > Input = Wow, it's producing power!

What I don't understand is why they don't perform a VERY quick and simple test: connect the input and output together, and see how long it runs...
User avatar
Electrocycle
Senior Member
Posts: 985
Joined: Sun, 19 Oct 2008, 20:23
Real Name: Andrew
Location: Sydney
MSN: dumhed@dumhed.com
Contact:

MagniWorks an option?

Post by Electrocycle »

nooo, the power it generates is always somehow incompatible with the power needed to run it :P
The Engine Whisperer - fixer of things
EVangelical
Noobie
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun, 05 Jul 2009, 23:57
Real Name: Erik Leipoldt
Location: Perth

MagniWorks an option?

Post by EVangelical »

Meaning there is less available power out than came in?
EV or not EV is no longer a question

User avatar
Electrocycle
Senior Member
Posts: 985
Joined: Sun, 19 Oct 2008, 20:23
Real Name: Andrew
Location: Sydney
MSN: dumhed@dumhed.com
Contact:

MagniWorks an option?

Post by Electrocycle »

yes

If the motor generated more power than it used, it could run by itself indefinitely - a perpetual motion machine.

Obviously anyone actually building a working perpetual motion machine will essentially own the future of the entire planet, and probably won't really need to get by selling plans on ebay.
The Engine Whisperer - fixer of things
User avatar
woody
Senior Member
Posts: 1716
Joined: Sat, 21 Jun 2008, 02:03
Real Name: Anthony Wood
Location: Mt Colah

MagniWorks an option?

Post by woody »

"But they have a patent!"

A few years ago they changed the Oz patent system changing the "petty" patent to an "innovation" patent, with no examination before award, relying on challenges after instead. So witty folks have stumped up the cash to file patents the wheel and fire etc, which are valid patents until someone challenges them...

Nice to have "innovation"(tm) patents, and perpetual motion all tied up together...
Planned EV: '63 Cortina using AC and LiFePO4 Battery Pack
User avatar
Johny
Senior Member
Posts: 3733
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 16:26
Real Name: John Wright
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

MagniWorks an option?

Post by Johny »

Carl Sagan's "The Demon Haunted World". Read it and weep!
User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

MagniWorks an option?

Post by Richo »

It's only free energy until you have to pay for it Image
AND you will pay for it in the end Image
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!
User avatar
EV2Go
Senior Member
Posts: 2059
Joined: Wed, 16 Jul 2008, 00:21
Real Name: Paul
Location: Brisbane 1963

MagniWorks an option?

Post by EV2Go »

I don't think they are claiming perpetual motion but rather overunity which to my mind are very different things.
Tritium_James
Senior Member
Posts: 683
Joined: Wed, 04 Mar 2009, 17:15
Real Name: James Kennedy
Contact:

MagniWorks an option?

Post by Tritium_James »

But that's exactly my point - if it's overunity, then by definition you are producing more power than you are consuming, therefore if you feed output -> input you MUST have a perpetual motion machine.
EVangelical
Noobie
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun, 05 Jul 2009, 23:57
Real Name: Erik Leipoldt
Location: Perth

MagniWorks an option?

Post by EVangelical »

And a perpetual motion machine would be rather miraculous, wouldn't it. In other words, the possibility of the MagniWorks actually working is a slimmer chance than proving the earth is resting on the back of a turtle, of a turtle, of a turtle, all the way down...

Does anyone know whether patent approval is only granted upon proof provided by independent assessment? I guess the ever-hopeful human in me makes me ask such questions nevertheless.
EV or not EV is no longer a question

User avatar
woody
Senior Member
Posts: 1716
Joined: Sat, 21 Jun 2008, 02:03
Real Name: Anthony Wood
Location: Mt Colah

MagniWorks an option?

Post by woody »

EVangelical wrote: Does anyone know whether patent approval is only granted upon proof provided by independent assessment? I guess the ever-hopeful human in me makes me ask such questions nevertheless.
In Oz, there are 2 types of patents: regular patents, which are examined before approval, and "innovation" patents, which are only examined if challenged, i.e. approval is automatic.

So in Australia this patent could be "Patent pending" I.E. unexamined regular patent, or "Innovation Patented" I.E. unexamined approved, or it has been examined and passed (by a doofus) as a regular patent. you can figure out which if you get the patent number.
Planned EV: '63 Cortina using AC and LiFePO4 Battery Pack
User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

MagniWorks an option?

Post by Richo »

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Magniwork

The man behind it is smart.
Not because he tells you it works.
But because you believe it and pay him money for it.
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!
EVangelical
Noobie
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun, 05 Jul 2009, 23:57
Real Name: Erik Leipoldt
Location: Perth

MagniWorks an option?

Post by EVangelical »

Thanks Richo. Great reference to Peswiki!
EV or not EV is no longer a question

Squiggles
Senior Member
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 03:19
Real Name: Neil
Location: Newcastle NSW

MagniWorks an option?

Post by Squiggles »

woody wrote:
EVangelical wrote: Does anyone know whether patent approval is only granted upon proof provided by independent assessment? I guess the ever-hopeful human in me makes me ask such questions nevertheless.
In Oz, there are 2 types of patents: regular patents, which are examined before approval, and "innovation" patents, which are only examined if challenged, i.e. approval is automatic.

So in Australia this patent could be "Patent pending" I.E. unexamined regular patent, or "Innovation Patented" I.E. unexamined approved, or it has been examined and passed (by a doofus) as a regular patent. you can figure out which if you get the patent number.


I don't believe that a patent is intended to validate a design, the sole purpose of a patent is to provide ownership of an invention to the inventor. So that the inventor has some support in the event that someone else attempts to make a dollar from the invention.

There is probably heaps of bogus patent 'applications', it only cost $80 to make a preliminary application.
User avatar
EV2Go
Senior Member
Posts: 2059
Joined: Wed, 16 Jul 2008, 00:21
Real Name: Paul
Location: Brisbane 1963

MagniWorks an option?

Post by EV2Go »

TJ - no not really... perpetual motion work on the premise that a device will continue to move under its own steam for ever. Since changing the polarity of magnets is the source of propulsion it would eventually stop when the magnets become demagnetised. Changing magnetic fields will speed up this failure.

Over unity on the other hand doesn't require that a device continue to run for ever, only that it produces more energy than is put in. Over unity is theoretically not possible since there is always an energy loss with friction (a motor turning a generator), but that doesn’t mean that you can’t create a device that uses semi free energy like magnets to turn a device that produces energy.

Remember even if you use magnets it took energy to magnetise them in the first place.
Last edited by EV2Go on Mon, 06 Jul 2009, 13:26, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Electrocycle
Senior Member
Posts: 985
Joined: Sun, 19 Oct 2008, 20:23
Real Name: Andrew
Location: Sydney
MSN: dumhed@dumhed.com
Contact:

MagniWorks an option?

Post by Electrocycle »

EV2Go wrote:that doesn’t mean that you can’t create a device that uses semi free energy like magnets to turn a device that produces energy.


That's what we do with a permanent magnet motor :)
With an induction motor or series wound DC motor, some of the power is used to create a field which could otherwise be supplied by permanent magnets.



To me, perpetual motion doesn't really mean that it can go forever under all circumstances.
I would class anything that can run continuously on its own power (over unity) as a perpetual motion machine.
The Engine Whisperer - fixer of things
User avatar
Richo
Senior Member
Posts: 3737
Joined: Mon, 16 Jun 2008, 00:19
Real Name: Richard
Location: Perth, WA

MagniWorks an option?

Post by Richo »

Always with the magnets Image
They always confuse people.

Magnets like those in a motor only use a few watts to produce.
So in theory if I had 100 magnets I could make my eV go to the end of the street for free.
Except I had to pay for the magnets. Image

And don't forget if you make a magnetic bearing there is no friction!
So the short answer is NO but the long answer is YES.
Help prevent road rage - get outta my way!
Squiggles
Senior Member
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 03:19
Real Name: Neil
Location: Newcastle NSW

MagniWorks an option?

Post by Squiggles »

Electrocycle wrote:
EV2Go wrote:that doesn’t mean that you can’t create a device that uses semi free energy like magnets to turn a device that produces energy.


That's what we do with a permanent magnet motor :)
With an induction motor or series wound DC motor, some of the power is used to create a field which could otherwise be supplied by permanent magnets.


So you are saying, in electrical terms and because there are magnets a PM motor can run over unity. I still don't buy it.
Benonymous
Groupie
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri, 14 Mar 2008, 20:12
Real Name: Ben Roberts

MagniWorks an option?

Post by Benonymous »

Gawd! Not the "magnet motor" thing again. When you see one of these things demonstrated, take note of the method. The demonstration pretty well always begins with the device being "started" with an external power source, after that the "over unity" device then runs "on its own" without the external source. It is possible to make this look plausible especially if you put no load on the device or a very weak load. However, if you attempted to put a big load on the motor it would eventually slow down and stall.

None of these "magnetic motors" has ever been demonstrated to work in a practical way, doing work. The fact is that even if it did work and the device was able to overcome its own losses and run forever, it would only be able to sustain a very light load. This is all conjecture though because they don't work.

Arranging a bunch of PM's so that they make a shaft turn around is kids stuff and has been done experimentally for years. The last iteration of this idea that was supposed to be the great leap beyond the conservation of energy was the Cyclone engine, also developed in Australia. After fleecing a bunch of gullible investors, the principal of the company "disappeared", like the inventor of the "Split Cycle" engine years before. As a parallel, the Split Cycle engine, for all its promised wonders, was never fitted to a vehicle of any kind for the purpose of a demonstration, it's a total giveaway.
Last edited by Benonymous on Tue, 07 Jul 2009, 06:59, edited 1 time in total.
Squiggles
Senior Member
Posts: 742
Joined: Wed, 22 Apr 2009, 03:19
Real Name: Neil
Location: Newcastle NSW

MagniWorks an option?

Post by Squiggles »

His name wasn't Sarich was it? This guy made a fortune out of buying and selling shares in his own company completely coincidentally timed with positive and negative press releases.
Benonymous
Groupie
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri, 14 Mar 2008, 20:12
Real Name: Ben Roberts

MagniWorks an option?

Post by Benonymous »

Here's the Cycclone engine.

http://www.cycclone.com/

You'll notice there isn't a single example of a working engine on the site. By "working" I mean a unit doing work Image

Ralph Sarich invented the "Orbital Engine" which also never made an appearance except running a water pump as I recall. Sarich was a genuine engineer and inventor and is extremely rich now.

Rick Mayne was the owner of "Split Cycle Technologies" he's vapourised like the engine he made. He even sucked Jack Brabham in to be a director of the company.
User avatar
Johny
Senior Member
Posts: 3733
Joined: Mon, 23 Jun 2008, 16:26
Real Name: John Wright
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

MagniWorks an option?

Post by Johny »

Benonymous wrote: Here's the Cycclone engine.
http://www.cycclone.com/
Against my better judgement I had a look at that site. I couldn't find anything with even a taint of engineering about it.Image
It appears to be a bunch of con-suits selling companies to each other.
User avatar
Electrocycle
Senior Member
Posts: 985
Joined: Sun, 19 Oct 2008, 20:23
Real Name: Andrew
Location: Sydney
MSN: dumhed@dumhed.com
Contact:

MagniWorks an option?

Post by Electrocycle »

Squiggles wrote:So you are saying, in electrical terms and because there are magnets a PM motor can run over unity. I still don't buy it.
No,
just that a permanent magnet motor can get closer to 100% efficiency.

There are two sets of magnetic fields in a motor - the stator and the rotor (armature, etc)

One of those fields needs to alternate in polarity - so you can't use permanent magnets.
The other field can be static, so permanent magnets are fine.

If you use permanent magnets for the static field you don't have to waste power generating that field - but you still have to generate the other one, and there are losses involved.
Off the shelf mass produced motors are around 90% efficient, and top end motors like the CSIRO solar car motors can do 98%
The Engine Whisperer - fixer of things
User avatar
Electrocycle
Senior Member
Posts: 985
Joined: Sun, 19 Oct 2008, 20:23
Real Name: Andrew
Location: Sydney
MSN: dumhed@dumhed.com
Contact:

MagniWorks an option?

Post by Electrocycle »

The split cycle motor just had an extra row of magets around the coils, so make use of the "wasted" field.
Of course other motor designs don't have the coils arranged in the same way, and have a magnetic path for those fields, so they are not wasted at all.
The Engine Whisperer - fixer of things
Post Reply