EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

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smithy2167
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EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by smithy2167 » Thu, 21 Nov 2019, 07:27

The stupidity of the current governments (state and federal) with regard to the future of the environment reaches greater heights each day.

The NSW and Vic governments are now seriously considering imposing a 4c/km tax only on EVs, to replace the fuel excise tax that we are "cheating them out of".
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/fede ... 53cdj.html

They admit that this tax does not go to improving the road system but is simply plugged into general revenue. They seem to conveniently forget that purchasers of new EVs are, in most cases, slugged with another obsolete tax - the Luxury Car Tax - which, at 33% of the vehicle value above $75K, can be quite a slug for many (e.g. $8K for a Model 3, $25K for a Model S). But we do need to support our local car indust... oh, wait ... into general revenue again.

We have a solar PV system at home and charge our vehicle during the day using NO coal-generated electricity. So, zero CO2. What incentive do we get for purchasing and owning a truly zero-emissions EV? None. And now they want us to pay for the privilege!

This will not just affect new EV owners. I'm sure they'll try to tax ALL registered EVs - home made or production - and will lump PHEVs in with BEVs.

This is an issue that the AEVA needs to get onto. We need to lobby these cretins in government and open their eyes to the benefits of EVs.

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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by jonescg » Thu, 21 Nov 2019, 08:10

Yes it's disgusting. The AEVA has long stated it doesn't have a problem with a road user charge based on km travelled and vehicle mass. But only if it's applied to all vehicles, not just EVs. This way the fuel excise can stay in place and be wound back as more EVs fill the roads.

It's extraordinary that the government seeks to penalise those who do right by the country...
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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by poprock » Thu, 21 Nov 2019, 12:47

In the 70,s my truckie friend had to keep a log book of his journey,s, apparently speedo,s could be rewound with a drill on the speedo cable and we all know truckies could not be trusted, unlike used car dealers :lol:. So now this could be policed maybe by a gps device transmitting all trip records to a computer buried underground at Fisherman,s Bend, generating a yearly account billed to the owners ( me n you ), causing strokes and heart attacks. On the point of the general revenue black hole, I assume that all gambling revenue disappears there too. How are the Nordic countries coping with the loss of revenue from fuel sales?

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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by PiMan » Thu, 21 Nov 2019, 14:20

The Australian industry is still at a point where we should be subsidising EVs, not taxing them.

I, a layman with no say in the matter, propose the following: A temporary $5000 subsidy for all EVs, paid for by a permanent road user charge on all vehicles.

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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by brunohill » Thu, 21 Nov 2019, 15:24

How can it encourage you to use public transport, where there is no public transport?

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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by jonescg » Thu, 21 Nov 2019, 16:09

AEVA National Secretary, WA branch chair.

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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by brendon_m » Thu, 21 Nov 2019, 18:33

There's so much to unpack there, some good ideas/points and some real marketing crap/cherry picked data.
I don't even know where to begin....

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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by EVdownUnder » Thu, 21 Nov 2019, 20:11

This makes me furious :evil:
This would be a $1600 tax per year for me. I've done many days of calculations to find out how I could justify an EV, and some idiots change the rule...
But the reality is that it is not the money. I am simply deeply ashamed (more than before) of my government. They don't give a rat's arse about human rights, now this???
As someone already said, we will be the laughing stock of the planet. Actually just a bit more then before as our moronic politicians proudly opened a brand new coal mine that was going to create thousands of jobs according to them but extremely safe according to :evil: Adani :evil: as most of the work would be AUTOMATED!!!
Even the US, governed by a psychotic monkey has EV incentives for f*@K sake.
If someone finds out an email or phone number for us to vent our anger, please share it.
And does anyone knows how complicated it is to emigrate to NZ?
Aaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!

https://www.greenvehicleguide.gov.au/pa ... eEmissions
Using the average new LIGHT vehicle's CO2 emissions sold in Australia in 2017, so far I have saved Melbourne 1638kg of CO2... Where is my bonus for that?
Or should I have bought a big 4wd and pump more than double that per 1000km? Where is their tax for that?

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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by brunohill » Fri, 22 Nov 2019, 01:55

Perhaps all EV owners will get a reduced medicare levy to compensate.

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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by T1 Terry » Fri, 22 Nov 2019, 09:33

How about we propose a reduction in politicians wages and pensions to off set the loss of a fuel tax that is used to supplement pollies wages at the moment? That would put the pollies on the back foot trying to justify why there is a fuel tax at all if it isn't going into improving roads but into their pockets.

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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by jonescg » Fri, 22 Nov 2019, 09:51

And that's the rub - the fuel levy has been going into general revenue for half a century. Once it's in the pot, it really didn't matter where it came from. They could just as easily remove the fuel excise all together, and change the income tax brackets so everybody pays less at the pump, but more at tax time.
Taxes should be progressive wherever possible. Blanket taxes like the GST, fuel levies and odometer taxes are regressive - they impact the poorest people worse as we all need to buy stuff, and we all need to get places.

So if the whole point of this tax take is about bolstering federal revenue, then find another, fairer way. Otherwise, low and broad is the least-worst way to do it.
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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by Rusdy » Sat, 23 Nov 2019, 13:06

jonescg wrote:
Thu, 21 Nov 2019, 16:09
The report can be read here: https://infrastructure.org.au/wp-conten ... hicles.pdf
I think we all agree that there is something deeply unfair about the current road tax system. It's a pity the report missed it's own recommendation on what has been working well, I.e. "Box 4", use NZ system, by weight AND distance travelled.

Roads are expensive to cater heavy vehicles. Simple...

The proposed 1 litre per 100km threshold is simply... unfair.

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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by francisco.shi » Sun, 24 Nov 2019, 16:12

I think taxing tyres would be the easiest way to get a road use tax. It will be so difficult to ensure every car is done correctly. You can not use GPS unless you can ensure everyone will take the GPS with them at all times. And how about running underground?
It would be too easy to block a GPS signal and ensure every car is reading correctly.
Taxing tyres would be impossible to avoid and if setup correctly could provide a very accurate road wear indicator. Say tax by volume of rubber and hardness.
Then all road going tyres would be taxed. This means a farm would not have to pay extra for tractor tyres or tyres that do not go on public roads.
Then ICE cars would become even more expensive to run unless fuel excise is removed which probably won't happen.

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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by Rusdy » Sun, 24 Nov 2019, 16:33

francisco.shi wrote:
Sun, 24 Nov 2019, 16:12
I think taxing tyres would be the easiest way to get a road use tax...
Huh, that's outside the box thinking, great idea!

The only issue I can think of, since tyres easily last more than 30kkm these days, the tax will need to be more than double the price of the tyre itself (using 4c per km cost from the report).

I can see people using bare metal wheels to evade tax :lol:

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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by coulomb » Sun, 24 Nov 2019, 18:03

Rusdy wrote:
Sun, 24 Nov 2019, 16:33
Huh, that's outside the box thinking, great idea!
Seconded! It also disproportionately taxes hoons ;)
the tax will need to be more than double the price of the tyre itself
This is probably the downfall. Such a noticeable tax would be a "great big new tax on everything" (because nearly everything needs delivery by truck), and the opposition of the day would have a field day. Fossil fuel is ideal, because it has to be bought every week or two, not every several years.

Edit: so it could be done, but it would take real leadership. Which unfortunately means... :x
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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by francisco.shi » Sun, 24 Nov 2019, 18:19

The tax will be more than the tyres. At 4c per km if a set of tyres lasts 30k km the tax would be $1200. A small car set of tyres is around $400.

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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by coulomb » Sun, 24 Nov 2019, 18:46

francisco.shi wrote:
Sun, 24 Nov 2019, 18:19
The tax will be more than the tyres.
Exactly. So it will have to be introduced progressively (or else it's unfair to those who happen to need tyres right now), and it will seem unfair. "I get a measly 40¢ per litre off my petrol, but tyres have gone up more than double!" Yet it could be totally revenue neutral.

The other thing is that big trucks will pay proportionately more than ordinary drivers. You can argue that this corrects a "free ride" that they've been getting away with, but they'll scream blue murder. They'll point out (rightly) that heavy transport is a part of the cost of almost all goods, so this pushes up the price of everything. Whenever you change the tax balance like that, even if it's arguably in the right direction, the people that lose out will oppose it strongly.
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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by jonescg » Sun, 24 Nov 2019, 19:35

That is a really, really good idea!
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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by brendon_m » Sun, 24 Nov 2019, 20:39

I doubt it would happen but we could make up the lost revenue by not subsidising the fossil industry.
A quick Google says the fuel excise brings in roughly $27b and the government subsidises the fossil industry with roughly $29b.
So leave the excise as is and let it dwindle and slowly choke off fossils (which will also increase the price of fossils up which will push more people/companies to renewables) or cut it and cut the subsidies for fossils.
The books will balance at around the same amount, fossils will probably become more expensive and the same amount of money is being spent on roads.


Also the government could stop selling all its profitable assets and start to earn money off its own investments and products in the long run. Then it could just lower taxes in general.
But I guess it's more important to make the books look good for the 4 years the party's in power.


Edit for grammar

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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by brendon_m » Mon, 25 Nov 2019, 06:21

My wife asked "how much does the government actually spend on the roads?"
It turns out the budget allows for about $5b for infrastructure. And 80% of that goes to roads. But I'll be generous and say the whole lot gets spent on the roads. That's still only a fifth of the $27b excise is spent on roads.
They can't complain about EVs not paying their way and damaging the roads and want us to pay for it but then not spend the money on the roads.

So sure, I'll pay 4¢ per km but only if the roads become 5 times better.

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Re: EV-Only "Fuel" Tax On The Govt Agenda

Post by T1 Terry » Wed, 04 Dec 2019, 07:50

If the tax is one of those things they are going to bring in no matter how much we complain, will they also tax hybrids? That would be a double tax if they did, one for the fuel and the other for the kms travelled x weight or what ever formula they decide on that will make them the most money. The obviously don't care about offsetting pollution etc when they put an excise tax on LPG at the same rate as petrol, even though the emissions are a fraction of the petrol and diesel emission's and can be used to replace the Adblu that is required for heavy vehicles in reducing the fine particulate matter by clumping it into heavier particles that drop out of the air. It could also have been used in place of the particulate filters that are giving all the problems now with the smaller capacity town car diesel vehicles.

If they don't include hybrid vehicles, a tax evading path would be to include a small engine gen set, much like the BMW idea with a motorcycle engine and generator in the boot. It would certainly push people towards the hybrid option rather than a pure EV ..... A great market potential for hybrid battery upgrades to increase the pure EV range

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