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E rider scooter batteries?

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jordanmills View Drop Down
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    Posted: 15 July 2016 at 4:23pm
Ive recently aquired an erider scooter i believe that needs new batteries. Does anyone have any recommendations on a replacement?. Ill be running a QS273 hub motor with a 72v 80amp controller. Was thinking lipo as the cheapest route but are there any viable lithium options (without costing a bomb).

Cheers Jordan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antiscab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2016 at 4:59am
Does your scooter have the blue chl 50ah cells, or the yellow 60ah thunder sky cells?

Leaf modules would probably be the cheapest, but would involve a bms change. I would recommend something programmable such as the zeva offering.

From memory the erider scooters were fairly light on for instrumentation. Scaled voltage guage instead of an ah counter for a fuel guage, for instance. Have you had a chance to do a capacity test?

The erider batteries are under sized imo.
Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jordanmills Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2016 at 5:07am
I bought it without any batteries so unsure as to what were the originals. Will pick up the scooter next week. Just trying to plan everything out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote antiscab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2016 at 5:21am
Originally posted by jordanmills jordanmills wrote:

I bought it without any batteries so unsure as to what were the originals.


Ah no batteries makes it interesting.

Calb 60ah cells should fit, as may the Calb 70ah cells.

The original bms is not of the greatest quality, assuming it still has one.

The motorcontrollers tend to have a high failure rate, it would be worthwhile to test it, just to make sure it's worthwhile.
I do know of another erider for sale here in Perth. This one has a sevcon controller installed. It may be cheaper. Buying that scooter and keeping yours for parts than buying new parts for yours.
Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jordanmills Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 July 2016 at 5:21am
Cheers, i've got one local here for $700. Controller has been swapped out for an ebike version (72v 80amp), so a much simpler setup paired with the QS273. I'll have a look at these cells.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote antiscab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 July 2016 at 10:25am
If that other scooter has good batteries, it's a good buy

swapping *to* a 72v 80A controller is an odd swap, I wonder why they did that
Running on the original controller is very slow going. Part of the reason the failure rate is so high is because the small controller is running flat out all the time

If you ever find yourself in need to replace a prematurely dead motor controller, go bigger. Not just for better performance, but a larger controller is less stressed and less likely to fail

On Theo's bike I put in a kelly 72v 400A controller - you can current limit in software, but the difference was like night and day

Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jordanmills Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 July 2016 at 10:30am
Thanks, i do have the option of a Kelly controller or might go sabvoton (150amp). Both similarly priced i believe. Just need to sort the battery dilemma first

Cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jordanmills Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 July 2016 at 9:55am
Well ended up buying 9 6s 12000ah Graphene lipos. Were on special and too hard to pass up. Will run in a 18s3p configuration for 75v 36ah pack. Will bulk charge majority of the time and balance if needed. Will make a build thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jordanmills Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 July 2016 at 1:57pm
Can anyone help identify what these wires/ plugs are for??.



Not getting any power up to the ignition
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jateureka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2016 at 9:24am
Would help to know what controller you are using.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jordanmills Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2016 at 9:52am
Wires are off the original harness and not the controller (Yuyanking brand). I've take it up to an Auto Elec to get sorted
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pahealey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2016 at 6:08am
Hi Jordan,
I recently bought an Erider without batteries or controller as well. I have been researching batteries as well. I am very keen to get the CALB LiFePO4 72ah batteries which appear to be the highest capacity I can squeeze into the battery box. I am trying to get them directly from china from evlithium.com cost about $145 each delivered. They are about $200 each from ev-power.com.au with postage to east coast. A cheaper way to do it would be getting Winston 40ah batteries from EVwork.com.au or www.thebackshed.com/basiclynatural for $72 each. I need 24 cells. Where did you find your lipos?

I managed to power up the 12V system yesterday. Under the lockable compartment in front of the seat in a conector with black, green and yellow wire. POsitive 12V to black, negative to green will power up the normal electrics. The bike has only done 1900km!.

My bike still has the connector for a Sevcon controller so I have downloaded the manual for that controller and was planning to then figure out the wiring for my Sabvoton controller. I bought the Sabvoton on Alibaba for $350 delivered. You can get Size 4 Sevcon on Ebay for US$400 but Sevcon wouldn't give me an access file for their software and the IXXAT conector you need for them is $300.

I,m interested in your thoughts
Phil

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antiscab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2016 at 9:12am
Originally posted by pahealey pahealey wrote:


I am very keen to get the CALB LiFePO4 72ah batteries which appear to be the highest capacity I can squeeze into the battery box. I am trying to get them directly from china from evlithium.com cost about $145 each delivered. They are about $200 each from ev-power.com.au with postage to east coast.


I've been down this path before - be aware that the fixed fees for a sea importation add up to around $1000
unless you are buying *lots* of cells at the same time, it's rarely worth doing an individual importation

out of curiosity, have you considered leaf modules?
you would only need 9 or 10 modules (each module is $190 and 60Ah 8.4v)
you're going to need a new BMS either way

Does your e-rider have the TC Charger installed?


Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pahealey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2016 at 10:26am
Where can you buy Nissan modules in Australia? AQuick search hasn't had any results. I have a TC charger.
Evlithium quoted US$390 door to door but it does seem to cheap as even Get would be $300. I don't want them dumped at the dock.
Phil
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonescg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2016 at 10:37am
I second Matt's comments - just buy them from EV-Power or EV-Works, depending on what you're after. Going direct to China is simply not worth the hassle. At least if you buy them from an Australian business, everyone is covered by the Australian Consumer Protection legislation.
I challenge you to come up with a better invention than the bicycle
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coulomb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2016 at 10:47am
Originally posted by pahealey pahealey wrote:

Where can you buy Nissan modules in Australia?

Graeme from Suzi Auto and ozdiyelectricvehicles has imported these in the past. The trouble is that they come from wrecks, so supply is not guaranteed. It also depends on when he's imported a batch, and how many are left over.

See for example this post:
http://forums.aeva.asn.au/forum_posts.asp?TID=3976&KW=Leaf+modules+suziauto&PID=60239&title=leaf-cells#60239

Edited by coulomb - 31 July 2016 at 10:48am
Learning how to repair and re-flash TC/Elcon chargers and PIP-4048 inverter-chargers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jordanmills Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2016 at 3:27pm
Yes i did the maths on the battery setup. Using leafs was going to be around $2500, with BMS included. Using the CALB cells was slightly more i think. I picked up the Lipo's from Hobbyking for $80 a pop, Bought 9 for $800. 75v 36ah should get me moving nicely.

Had the auto Elec guys sort out my wiring for $150, Will pick it up tomorrow. Had a dud DC DC converter so a replacement was ordered. Should be good to go.

Only issue i have is there is no ignition shutoff from the battery...so once key is out, full throttle can still be applied which isnt good lol. Will tap into the controllers ignition wire and feed off the bikes ignition barrell (2 red wire, 1 yellow). Other alternative is to disconnect batteries under the seat using Andersons, which can be locked
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pahealey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2016 at 6:53pm
Has anyone tried to buy Nissan leaf Batteries new from Nissan? I believe they are about $8500 for 24kwh (when sold as replacement) which is very reasonable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jateureka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 August 2016 at 3:37am
There should have been an isolation switch / circuit breaker under the seat.
There is a very large thread on the V is for Voltage forum on the e-rider and the guy strips it down and repalces a controller, etc with lots of pics. May be helpful to you.

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/11326-erider-8000w-scooter-australia-similar-xm5000li

Are you using a BMS for your LiPo?

Edited by jateureka - 01 August 2016 at 3:46am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jordanmills Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 August 2016 at 4:46am
Originally posted by jateureka jateureka wrote:

There should have been an isolation switch / circuit breaker under the seat.
There is a very large thread on the V is for Voltage forum on the e-rider and the guy strips it down and repalces a controller, etc with lots of pics. May be helpful to you.

http://visforvoltage.org/forum/11326-erider-8000w-scooter-australia-similar-xm5000li

Are you using a BMS for your LiPo?


Been through that thread, and even emailed another guy for pics. Maybe i should post them up here as a resource.

There is indeed a 100amp circuit breaker (AC though) under the seat. I may end up just using this for simplicity. No BMS for Lipo, never had an issue using them on my bikes. Will balance charge every few weeks and just use 3 server power supplies to bulk charge at 15amp
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pahealey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2016 at 5:37am
I have been looking into Lipo option suggested by Jordan. 6S lipo cells are 22.2V or 25.2V at full charge. 3 in series gives 66.6V nominal voltage or 75.6V at full charge. 4 in series is 88.8V Nominal and 100.8V at full charge. The maximum normal voltage with 24 LiFePO4 cells would be 87.6V. Would 4 of the Lipos in series be too much?. Also I would like to bulk charge with my TC charger which has max Voltage of 87.6V. As you can tell I am rather new to battery tech and do appreciate your input.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jordanmills Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2016 at 6:00am
Originally posted by pahealey pahealey wrote:

I have been looking into Lipo option suggested by Jordan. 6S lipo cells are 22.2V or 25.2V at full charge. 3 in series gives 66.6V nominal voltage or 75.6V at full charge. 4 in series is 88.8V Nominal and 100.8V at full charge. The maximum normal voltage with 24 LiFePO4 cells would be 87.6V. Would 4 of the Lipos in series be too much?. Also I would like to bulk charge with my TC charger which has max Voltage of 87.6V. As you can tell I am rather new to battery tech and do appreciate your input.


You wont be able to use your charger unless you can dial the voltage down. Most of the bulk chargers (no balance ports) you can adjust the output of the charger. What i plan to do is get 3 power supplies and series them to get my output of 75v nominal. If you are planning to go with lipo you will need a balance charger (RC). These can be pricey. Also you need to work out the amps you are pulling to match the C rate of the batteries. If talking lipo's go with 1/4 of the stated C rate stated.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pahealey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2016 at 5:31am
Would getting rego be a problem with Lipo cells ? Also the thought of individually balance charging 9 or 12 or 15 cells every 2-3 weeks sounds onerous. However, your option is far and away the cheapest way to get a 36 or 48 or 60ah pack into the bike. I hope those Hobbyking cells stay on sale while I ponder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jordanmills Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2016 at 6:00am
Originally posted by pahealey pahealey wrote:

Would getting rego be a problem with Lipo cells ? Also the thought of individually balance charging 9 or 12 or 15 cells every 2-3 weeks sounds onerous. However, your option is far and away the cheapest way to get a 36 or 48 or 60ah pack into the bike. I hope those Hobbyking cells stay on sale while I ponder.


I dont know what the rules are for other states, but any "electric motorcycle/ scooter" has free rego in Victoria. Using lipo or any other chemistry shouldn't have nay impact. Sadly that's the price you pay for lipo, when balancing. You can buy a $300 charger or multiple and charge in no time. (15-20 amps), using a parallel charging board you can cycle through them in a few hours. Some people have gone 30 cycles without balancing with no issues. Just keep an eye on the cells and weed out any duds
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pahealey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 August 2016 at 12:20pm
I have decided to go with Nissan leaf modules with Graeme at Suzi auto. I have ordered 10 modules and should be able to charge these with my TC charger. Due to the delay til these come, probably 2-3 months, I have also ordered 3 12Ah lipos from hobby king to get the bike going. After factoring in the cost of chargers for the lipos as well as the hassle they were less attractive. I will use the 3 lipos for a battery pack for my e-bike after getting the nissan modules. Still have to figure out the wiring though.
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