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Antiscab's NWH10 Prius plugin Lithium conversion

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gtyler54 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote gtyler54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 August 2014 at 5:00am
It should be possible to make a device that sets the SOC in any way you like. It seems like a simple thing to do. I am an electronic design eng by trade, my limitation is I had a stroke, not paralysed or anything like that, but my brain gets tired quickly. I have 4 of these cars, I bought them to play with, but have since put new Toyota batteries in 2 of them as I ran out of energy. you are inspiring me to carry on with it however!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antiscab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 August 2014 at 10:01pm
I am more an electrical eng - making a micro to send out the right signal is presently outside of my skill set (and most likely I lack most of the required tools)

I wonder if it would be possible to write a computer program to test the theory first, before making a prototype?

Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antiscab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2014 at 6:02pm
Well, I tried driving around with my laptop plugged in Running TECU scanner

at first I was just looking at pack voltage and how well balanced the individual 5 groups of cells were from a voltage sag perspective - they were all pretty much the same :D

Then I tried resetting the SOC to 100% 2 or 3 times a minute

that yielded good results - the car started actively trying to discharge the battery (and the MFD lied like a politician about it)

fuel usage fell from an average of 5.4L/100km to 3L/100km
however, the laptop stopped communicating with the car half way through, so that value may fall further

I also need to start measuring how much energy the car is discharging from the battery, *and* I will need to start recharging the battery from the mains

Next proof of concept will be to get the laptop to automatically update the SOC to 100% without me hitting enter all the time. also I will need it to stop doing that when a 5 cell group voltage drops too far

next after that will be to insert the original prius temp sensors into the battery (I hadn't considered this in the initial conversion)

voltage sag is an interesting one.
I have no real idea of the batteries actual SOC at the moment, I just know it's not full and not empty

voltage was being pushed up as far as 375V (@ 50A of regen) and as low as 280V (@ 65A of discharge)
for a 100 cell 20Ah battery, it's not too bad, but given the frequency I think I will actually have to start looking into battery temperature rise

Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antiscab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 August 2014 at 6:56pm
Oh, I discovered using the TECU software that the highest SOC value that can be set is "127"

that suggests to me that be value being sent is actually a 7 bit value (or one byte with one bit reserved for something)

curiously, the updated % on the TECU software only showed a maximum of 74.5%, while the MFD showed full

not sure if this is because the software crashed
Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gtyler54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2014 at 6:45am
that's interesting, are you sure that 127 is all the car ECU can accept? how did you prove this? I know you never see below about 20% on the scanner too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 September 2014 at 6:44pm
Thought that was normal behaviour for the MFD to show full with 75% SOC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gtyler54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2014 at 4:58am
It is I think. the display only shows 25% (orange), 50%, 75% and full, and these do not correspond to the real SOC of the battery.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antiscab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 September 2014 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by gtyler54 gtyler54 wrote:

that's interesting, are you sure that 127 is all the car ECU can accept? how did you prove this? I know you never see below about 20% on the scanner too.


I tried entering 128 and the TECU program came back with an error
but 127 worked

I'm actually not sure if 100 is 100%, and just entering 127 didn't cause the program to crash and act weird

entering both 100 and 127 resulted in SOC being changed to 74.5%

anyway, at 74.5% the car is actively discharging the battery, which is the desired outcome anyway

I'm starting the car tonight with a full charge and going for a bit of a drive to get more data
Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antiscab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2014 at 12:45am
testing has revealed a few more things:

I seem to be able to update the SOC in the car only once every few minutes - not sure if the limitation is in the car or the TECU software

I wasn't able to do a full drive with discharging the battery constantly as the car faulted out tonight - it has developed an leak to ground *sigh*

looks like I need to pull the battery apart again.
on the upside, I will be able to implement some mods to the battery box and install the temp sensors
Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antiscab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2014 at 7:13am
oh, another thing I discovered

even when the car thinks the battery is full and needs active discharging, it will still run the engine until it is up to temperature

the end result is the fuel economy until the engine is up to temperature has no improvement
Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gtyler54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2014 at 7:33am
I did compare start up performance to a charade. I was working at Gallaghers (electric fence people) and lived about 3km from there. close, but could still take 15min due to traffic. in winter the Prius had just got up to temperature as I switched off at work, consumption was 10L/100km. this is with the trip taking 5 min. I decided that it would be no improvement over a non-hybrid car, so used my Charade I had bought for an electric conversion for a month or so. Consumption: 15L/100km! Prius still wins..... also, when the engine is cold it runs with retarded ignition and rich mixture. Autospeed has a mod on their site to fool the car into thinking is it warmer sooner, this improves consumption.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gtyler54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2014 at 7:38am
Originally posted by antiscab antiscab wrote:

testing has revealed a few more things:

I seem to be able to update the SOC in the car only once every few minutes - not sure if the limitation is in the car or the TECU software

I wasn't able to do a full drive with discharging the battery constantly as the car faulted out tonight - it has developed an leak to ground *sigh*

looks like I need to pull the battery apart again.
on the upside, I will be able to implement some mods to the battery box and install the temp sensors


by temperature sensors do you mean the 8 thermistor beads thay come out individually, or the thermistor strips with thermistors at each cell? (i.e. 240 thermistors)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antiscab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2014 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by gtyler54 gtyler54 wrote:

when the engine is cold it runs with retarded ignition and rich mixture. Autospeed has a mod on their site to fool the car into thinking is it warmer sooner, this improves consumption.


That's interesting, I will have to look into that

Originally posted by gtyler54 gtyler54 wrote:


by temperature sensors do you mean the 8 thermistor beads thay come out individually, or the thermistor strips with thermistors at each cell? (i.e. 240 thermistors)


Just the 8 thermistor beads

The thermistor strips I just faked out with a few 280 ohm resistors

Also - wiring fault corrected and car is running ok again - luckily the fault was easy to get to.

the temp sensors will have to go in another time
Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gtyler54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 September 2014 at 7:12pm
one warning about the autospeed article - it says the connections to the engine ECU is the same as the NHW11, I don't think that's right. you can trace it from the temp thermistor, connector between engine and inverter (green and black wires)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antiscab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 September 2014 at 11:02pm
lately I have just been driving around with a laptop, manually resetting the SOC every few seconds

here's my present observations:
using the TECU software, the more values you ask it to display, the slower the program runs.
If you want to update the SOC quickly, you should only poll for one or two values (in my case I choose pack voltage and current)

while SOC is very high, the car will run battery only as long as you stay below 50kmh and below 35A

I was able to use 5.5Ah on a 30km drive - by doing 50kmh most of the way

The engine does eventually restart when it gets too cool

I am now wondering if there is a long term wear and tear issue with doing 50kmh continuously, as MG1 is spinning at near it's max rpm (10'000rpm)

While the engine is running, the car will still discharge the battery at 10-15A continuous, when SOC is set very high.
I'm not sure if running this way is particularly efficient - I'm not sure how to measure this

Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gtyler54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 September 2014 at 7:35am
"While the engine is running, the car will still discharge the battery at 10-15A continuous, when SOC is set very high.
I'm not sure if running this way is particularly efficient - I'm not sure how to measure this"

At times the engine is just turning over with no petrol supplied, I think that is what is happening here, while it is drawing 10A. one reason it does this is to keep MG1 revs down at higher road speeds, as you obviously know from your post.
I want to remove the engine and replace it with a one way clutch, like a bendix from a truck starter maybe. this will let MG1 add it's torque at lower speeds but still not overspeed at 100+ km/hr.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antiscab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2014 at 5:33pm

Originally posted by gtyler54 gtyler54 wrote:


At times the engine is just turning over with no petrol supplied, I think that is what is happening here, while it is drawing 10A. one reason it does this is to keep MG1 revs down at higher road speeds, as you obviously know from your post.
I want to remove the engine and replace it with a one way clutch, like a bendix from a truck starter maybe. this will let MG1 add it's torque at lower speeds but still not overspeed at 100+ km/hr.


at 50kmh with the engine off 25-35A is drawn from the battery

at 60kmh and above, with the engine on, 10-15A is drawn from the battery - so definitely using fuel, I'm just wondering if the engine is operating at an efficient load (peak efficiency for this engine is 38% at minimum load of 10kw (WOT 1000rpm))

For MG1 to add torque, you will need a motor on the motor input - just adding a clutch and disconnecting the engine will just result in the engine output spinning up, with no net torque applied to the wheels

I just found this
auto keyboard program
This will allow me to drive while not having to keep hitting the enter key on my laptop

I just put a full tank of fuel into the prius.
I will be able to report back in a few weeks what the economy is like (L + kwh/100km) now
Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gtyler54 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2014 at 6:08pm
my thinking with the clutch is this:
1) at low speed MG1 drives power split device, clutch is enguaged, so other side of PSD (where engine would be normally) is held stationary, MG1 can drive.
2) as speed increases MG1 RPM reaches max, it then can't add torque past this RPM, so it stops. clutch freewheels.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T1 Terry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2014 at 7:55pm
I think you are referring to a sprag clutch, similar to that used in an automatic transmission torque converter to allow the stator to lock at low eng rpm but free wheel as the rpm increases. This is how the torque multiplication functions at low speed yet doesn't restrict higher eng revs.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antiscab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2014 at 10:18pm
ah ok, I see what you guys mean

ok, latest news

I went for a drive today - newest revelation - the car will in fact drive with the engine turning but no fuel usage - above 50kmh, and up to 35-40A

I drove for 50km and used 10Ah from the battery, all at speeds below 70kmh
MFD showed above 30km/L for over 30 mins
engine only ran on accelerations, and promptly shut down once power needed was below ~11kw
this was with SOC being reset to 100% every 30 seconds

bad news is the ground fault is back.
either I didn't fix it properly, or there's another one :(



Edited by antiscab - 10 September 2014 at 10:52pm
Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antiscab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 September 2014 at 10:48pm
seeing how well the car ran before the ground fault cropped up again has prompted me to start looking for more NHW10's

here's what I have found so far:

tasmania

gympie QLD

Ararat VIC

Reservior

None in Perth sadly

I remember a guy in lynwood or maddington having a couple for sale
does anyone know what became of those?
Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 7circle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2014 at 6:19pm
Just thinking of the unsold cars where the motors and drive systems getting scrapped

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antiscab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 September 2014 at 8:58pm
Originally posted by 7circle 7circle wrote:

Just thinking of the unsold cars where the motors and drive systems getting scrapped <img src="smileys/smiley19.gif" align="middle" />



I know :(

I feel kinda guilty it's taken me 2 years to get to this point - I wonder just how many NHW10's have been lost in this time
Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adverse Effects Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 September 2014 at 12:34am
Originally posted by antiscab antiscab wrote:

Originally posted by 7circle 7circle wrote:

Just thinking of the unsold cars where the motors and drive systems getting scrapped


I know :(

I feel kinda guilty it's taken me 2 years to get to this point - I wonder just how many NHW10's have been lost in this time


to many but that would be partly because there are a lot of people out there that think along the lines of if someone dont want to pay me what i think its worth i'll just crush it insdead of someone else getting a good deal

like the problem i am having at the moment

just below the windscreen of your car there is a steel panel that your wipers mount to, mine has rusted away the wreckers wot sell me it for less than $250 (and i was going to do all the work to get it out or it would have been $450) i told him i wouldn't buy it at that price and i stood there when he told the fork lift guy to take it to the crusher (about $5 in scrap metal price is all they would get for it after that)


Edited by Adverse Effects - 12 September 2014 at 12:37am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote antiscab Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 September 2014 at 6:08pm
more updates:

I'm not sure my cycle analyst Ah count is accurate

I tried to use one of my kwh counters to measure how much the charger consumed on recharge - but it only showed 0.5kwh used, while the cycle analyst shows 10Ah discharged (@330v)

biggest news:
at some point if you drive long enough the battery actually gets empty.
when this happens, if you keep telling the car SOC is 100%, but it sees one or more voltage blocks voltage collapse, it flags the battery as bad and fails with the no longer driveable.

this happened to me today,
I thought my earth leak was back - but I had no error codes indicating that was the case :s

resetting the SOC to 0% corrected everything

I have asked a friend to look into making a gizmo that keeps resetting SOC to 100%, while polling for the lowest block voltage. when lowest block voltage falls to a certain voltage, SOC resets to some low value.
Matt
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1993 Electrolux - needs batt and charger
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