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Drewdk View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11 November 2016 at 2:07pm
Hello all Newby here. I will be purchasing a Nissan patrol gq swb very soon and it has a very thirsty petrol 4.2l. I have briefly looked into ev conversions but wanted to ask specific questions about my plan. Is there a way to have something under the bonnet ie. Generic generator to extend range? I know there is a lot of variables in designs/configuration but just want to know if it's even a possibility. Is there a point where adding additional batteries becomes self defeating by adding extra weight and lowering efficiency. Most of the time I will be driving under 20ks a day but want the ability to go on longer trips and towing a camper trailer(700kg). I realise the cost will be around 15k but any engine swap is costly, why not do one that's good for the planet and my wallet. Thanks for putting up with this Newby question. Lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adverse Effects Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2016 at 4:55pm
:-)

so you want to yank out the ICE and make the car/tank an EV but want to put a ICE in as well???


hmm you may want to think on that a bit

Edited by Adverse Effects - 12 November 2016 at 4:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 4Springs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2016 at 5:10pm
Originally posted by Drewdk Drewdk wrote:

Hello all Newby here. I will be purchasing a Nissan patrol gq swb very soon and it has a very thirsty petrol 4.2l. I have briefly looked into ev conversions but wanted to ask specific questions about my plan. Is there a way to have something under the bonnet ie. Generic generator to extend range? I know there is a lot of variables in designs/configuration but just want to know if it's even a possibility. Is there a point where adding additional batteries becomes self defeating by adding extra weight and lowering efficiency. Most of the time I will be driving under 20ks a day but want the ability to go on longer trips and towing a camper trailer(700kg). I realise the cost will be around 15k but any engine swap is costly, why not do one that's good for the planet and my wallet. Thanks for putting up with this Newby question. Lol


Welcome!
A big heavy car will be able to carry a big heavy battery. A big battery will get you a long range, but a big battery costs a lot of money.
For very rough budgetary figures I'd estimate $10k for everything required without the battery. Then around $10k in battery for each 100km of range. The limit you run into with battery weights is the design of the vehicle. You are not allowed to exceed the GVM of the vehicle, so you have a limit to how much battery you can carry. Cheaper batteries are around 300kg for 100km of range. More expensive batteries are lighter.

Like I say, very rough figures off the top of my head just to give you an idea.

Towing a 700kg trailer would be no problem, I have towed that weight with my Brumby. Electric is great for towing, although the extra wind drag of the trailer will reduce your range.

You could carry a generator to extend range, but it is almost never done. You need a big generator to produce enough electricity for a slow charge. A generator would have to produce around 2.5kW continuously for 10 hours to get 100km of range. If you wanted a generator to make enough electricity to power you while driving you'd need one about as big as a car engine - after all, it needs to power the car! So fitting that in, with fuel tank, radiator, exhaust etc. would be quite a challenge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjcrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2016 at 5:58pm
Hi Drewdk,

Do you need the ability to do hardcore 4wd work, or something that can do light 4wd (ie, dirt roads but not bush bashing).

Mitsubishi make a plug-in version of the Outlander (PHEV) which offers awd and should comfortably do most of your daily commute in EV mode, but can do the longer trips too and tow.

Alternatively I drive a 2008 Lexus RX400h SUV, it is a hybrid (like a prius) but only has a small battery pack so only accelerates on battery power for short periods and can't be recharged from external sources. It does offer awd, but is not user selectable (ie, the cars computer decides when the rear motor runs). It is a "soft" 4wd and not suitable for serious offroading, but handles dirt roads well and can tow (some newer model RX hybrids cannot tow).

It looks like you are in Adelaide, why not come to our next AEVA meeting, this coming Wednesday the 16th at 7:30pm at The Vogue Theatre (Northern Function Centre) 25 Belair Rd, Kingswood. Entry to the venue is via the northern car park. There is usually an Outlander PHEV driver or two at the meeting so you can have a look at one and ask a few questions (we don't bite, I promise). I should be able to make it as well so you can have a look at my car too.

Of course if you have your heart set on a Nissan Patrol, then converting one is your only option and as 4Springs posted above, it is not a particularly cheap option, and adding a gen-set is not going to be easy or particularly practical, and if it is permanently mounted in the vehicle, in SA it would have to meet ADR emissions standards which most small gen-sets would find difficult to achieve. Of course you could get a written off Outlander PHEV with no driveline damage and transfer all of the driveline into a Patrol

My 2c
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T1 Terry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2016 at 6:59am
Have you thought about putting an electric drive motor behind the 4 x 4 gearbox? This would give you 2WD all electric by selecting neutral in the transfer box but still have the ICE and gearbox as a range extender and hill climb assist, even hybrid mode to reduce the power required from the ICE engine and the benefit of regen braking. This could lead to a later swap out of the thirst ICE engine to a smaller diesel engine as it would only be an assist rather than the main propulsion unit.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drewdk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2016 at 7:39am
Thanks for the replies guys, yes I want to be doing hard core 4wding so the modern cars aren't an option. Are there any other options for extending range apart from the generator idea or adding batteries.
I will try to come for a visit but I work at lot of stupid hours (sa water burst water mains)
Just thought of something, could I have a large generator around 5-6 kW mounted on the camper to then feed back into the car batteries whilst driving. Sorry I'm not up to date with what the chargers can output input needed. I know 12v stuff but this is new territory
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drewdk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2016 at 7:45am
Thanks Terry I haven't thought of that, one thing that springs to mind though is the extra weight of the electric system and batteries without the offset of taking out the ICE. I'll do some more research
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adverse Effects Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 November 2016 at 10:12am
approx numbers (depending on what you put in)

you will be pulling out from about 200Kg to 450Kg (full gas tank /empty gas tank about 90Kg) of ICE and support systems

you will be putting in from 250Kg to 500KG (or more) depending on what you want it to do or even more depending on the battery size

then you want to add in a ICE genset

i dont know about the laws in Adelaide but up here in QLD its not legal
to have a motor running in a towable unit when moving(other than cold storage units) when i last looked (5 years ago)

Edited by Adverse Effects - 13 November 2016 at 10:15am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 4Springs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2016 at 4:10am
Originally posted by Drewdk Drewdk wrote:

could I have a large generator around 5-6 kW mounted on the camper to then feed back into the car batteries whilst driving.

Technically possible, legally questionable, practically, 5-6kW would not be enough to keep the vehicle moving. For a large vehicle (and camper) you'd need perhaps 20-30kW of power. Plus fuel, exhaust, radiator etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2016 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by Drewdk Drewdk wrote:

I realise the cost will be around 15k but any engine swap is costly, why not do one that's good for the planet and my wallet.


$15k conversion is tough.
Oddly I have been asked about a Patrol conversion already...

Lets assume 250Wh/km for 20km is 5kWh of battery minimum to get your desired range.
The patrol is around 125kW 325Nm ~3000RPM (low RPM high torque)
A 25C current draw will kill a pack pretty quick.
So the size of the battery pack will be determined by the Max C rating of the battery NOT your desired range.

So if you end up deciding to go with ex Leaf cells, to keep costs down ($15k budget), with 4C/9C but use 8C as the max.
Then 125kW/8C is still a 16kWh battery pack.
Going back to the original 250Wh/km would give a range of 50km (80% DOD).

I don't have any recent prices but perhaps $6-8k for the pack?!?

Now I'm sure there are some awesome AC BLDC + controller packages that can do 125kW peak easily but I doubt they are in your ~$7k price bracket.

Which means you are either going to have to choose an 11"+ Series DC motor or 15-22kW Eqv Industrial AC motor.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2016 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by 4Springs 4Springs wrote:

For a large vehicle (and camper) you'd need perhaps 20-30kW of power.


Yep that sounds about right assuming you want to go ~100kph.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2016 at 1:01pm
Originally posted by Adverse Effects Adverse Effects wrote:


i dont know about the laws in Adelaide but up here in QLD its not legal
to have a motor running in a towable unit when moving


Yeah I can't find anything to say either way.
I'd rather not comment until I see proof.

Can anybody find any law, guideline or ADR's etc that relate to this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drewdk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 November 2016 at 1:25pm
You guys are awesome. I still have a lot of research to do at this stage the hybrid idea that Terry suggested seems doable. 15 grand isn't a specific budget, I just know that ice engine swaps are around that mark.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T1 Terry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2016 at 10:03am
Originally posted by Drewdk Drewdk wrote:

You guys are awesome. I still have a lot of research to do at this stage the hybrid idea that Terry suggested seems doable. 15 grand isn't a specific budget, I just know that ice engine swaps are around that mark.

The trick will be to find an AC motor with a through shaft that can handle the torque applied to the rear axle when serious 4WD work is required. This will mean the size of the battery pack is now determined by the need for full EV drive via the electric motor or assist drive like a hybrid, but getting that idea to work automatically requires some very fancy electronics and gearbox design.... can't see that happening really, so this leaves manual ICE assist selection and possibly current limiting by the selected controller to stay within the capabilities of the chosen battery pack.
At first I guess every hill would be an ICE powered climb with EV assist until a good judgement of the EV capability and battery pack condition was established, but I'd imagine the climb up the Adelaide hills would still remain an ICE powered affair, I'm still trying to determine the requirements there as I want to build a primarily electric drive hybrid as the travel vehicle from Mannum to Adelaide return parts getting vehicle as well as a full electric drive for the shorter Murray Bridge - Mannum return daily driver. The original idea was full electric.... till I tried to climb the Adelaide Hill in my '74 Kombi, I'd need a recharge station half way up I think :lol:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2016 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by T1 Terry T1 Terry wrote:

Have you thought about putting an electric drive motor behind the 4 x 4 gearbox?
This would give you 2WD all electric


Are you suggesting removing the tail shaft to the rear wheels thereby making it a 2WD(FWD) parallel hybrid?




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2016 at 12:44pm
Originally posted by T1 Terry T1 Terry wrote:


The trick will be to find an AC motor with a through shaft that can handle the torque applied to the rear axle when serious 4WD work is required.


Ah so the tailshaft still connects through (but shorter).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2016 at 12:54pm
The downside of that is the motor already needs 325Nm going into the gearbox.
I doubt you could put an electric motor that big between the transfer case and rear drive.
Even if you could the RPM drop is what 4:1?
So 125kW full ev into gearbox would now be 30kW to drive shaft.
The motor would be the same so no cost saving.
Mechanically more complex and as you say parallel hybrid balance more complex.

Can be done.
But would cost more.
Plus you still have to carry around the original 200kg donk.

I'd still favour a full ev with range extender trailer.

Any takers on range extender ADR info?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2016 at 1:01pm
Thought this all started sounding familiar...
18.5kW ACIM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T1 Terry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 November 2016 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by Richo Richo wrote:

The downside of that is the motor already needs 325Nm going into the gearbox.
I doubt you could put an electric motor that big between the transfer case and rear drive.
Even if you could the RPM drop is what 4:1?
So 125kW full ev into gearbox would now be 30kW to drive shaft.
The motor would be the same so no cost saving.
Mechanically more complex and as you say parallel hybrid balance more complex.

Can be done.
But would cost more.
Plus you still have to carry around the original 200kg donk.

I'd still favour a full ev with range extender trailer.

Any takers on range extender ADR info?


Don't quite follow but maybe you have mistaken my suggested set up. Remove the tailshaft between the transfer case and the rear axle, shorten it so the electric motor can be added in at this point. When the transfer case is in neutral the electric motor looses nothing to the gearbox, front diff or ICE, some small oil throw losses in the transfer case. The electric motor drives at the same RPM as the ICE would spin in 4th gear direct drive. This would be ok for steady take off on the flat and driving in fairly level terrain and possibly slight hills depending on the electric motor torque and current made available to the electric motor from the controller. I would think around 3,000rpm would be about it but maybe 4,000rpm but I'd expect the drag at that speed would be excessive so would only be a waste or battery power. When the ICE is started the appropriate gear is selected in both the main box and transfer box depending on the work planned, the electric motor can assist or even become a generator to top up the battery pack if needed, but really this regen should be used for down hill speed control rather than parasitic battery recharging, but if there isn't a power point near by then....... The electric motor would add that torque boost when needed in assist mode and could gradually be brought into use as a fuel saver when cruising with a bit of practice, cheap fuel via solar recharging or even grid recharging.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Drewdk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2016 at 6:22am
In layman's terms what the difference or pros cons of activities compared to dc motors.
Am I understanding this correctly. If the electric motor was installed behind the gearbox with a dual or extended front and rear shaft, that whilst the ICE is running it will charge the battery pack.
While driving on electric would the gearbox have to be in neutral and the car be driven like an automatic?
Would it be easier or harder to have the electric motor after the transfer case in the front of the vehicle to turn it into a front wheel drive or all wheel drive when the ICE is working?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2016 at 8:45am
Originally posted by T1 Terry T1 Terry wrote:

The electric motor drives at the same RPM as the ICE would spin in 4th gear direct drive

Ah yes - Diff at rear
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2016 at 8:48am
Originally posted by Drewdk Drewdk wrote:

If the electric motor was installed behind the gearbox ... whilst the ICE is running it will charge the battery pack.


Only if it's an AC motor.
Sure there are exceptions but they are not worth considering.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T1 Terry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2016 at 9:06am
Originally posted by Drewdk Drewdk wrote:

In layman's terms what the difference or pros cons of activities compared to dc motors.
Am I understanding this correctly. If the electric motor was installed behind the gearbox with a dual or extended front and rear shaft, that whilst the ICE is running it will charge the battery pack.
While driving on electric would the gearbox have to be in neutral and the car be driven like an automatic?
Would it be easier or harder to have the electric motor after the transfer case in the front of the vehicle to turn it into a front wheel drive or all wheel drive when the ICE is working?

The regen capability of DC motors is limited, the brush set up causes issues and the torque from a 3 phase AC motor using a VFD as far as I can tell out performs a DC motor of the same size..... but I could be completely wrong there.

As far as the driving, transfer case in neutral would be direct drive one gear from take off to full speed and that depends on battery voltage compared to motor winding voltage.
With the transfer case in 4WD high range but the main box in neutral you would have 4WD electric as the rear tail shaft would drive through the transfer case to the front shaft, I don't think the transfer case in a Patrol has a planetary set in it, otherwise it would end up driving the wheel with the least traction. This would be for limited travel only as the main shaft in the gearbox is being spun inside the main shaft gears but as nothing else in the box is turning there would be no splash feed to oil anything. Probably best to have the ICE running and then you may as well drive it, but it would be a novelty to have electric 4 x 4 with no ICE running I guess for show and tell.
No idea what effect low range 4WD would have, I think it only increases the speed of the input shaft so no advantage unless the ICE was running and in gear so it contributed to the driving and be spinning at a higher RPM to take advantage of any torque characteristics the ICE had.

T1 Terry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote T1 Terry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2016 at 9:10am
Originally posted by Richo Richo wrote:

Originally posted by T1 Terry T1 Terry wrote:

The electric motor drives at the same RPM as the ICE would spin in 4th gear direct drive

Ah yes - Diff at rear

No black eyes intended, I'd spend a lot of time on here wearing black eyes cause the ratio of correct to completely headed in the wrong direction is really poor    

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 November 2016 at 9:25am
I'll chime in here.
To get enough torque to be any use the motor is going to have to be a minimum 132 frame. That is 132mm from shaft centre to mounting - or edge of motor (270mm diameter minimum).
Placing that behind the transfer case is going to put it just about centre between the front and rear wheels.
The first speed bump/rock/gutter you go over is going to shatter the motor.
I was very aware of this when I mounted mine in the transmission tunnel. I made sure that the motor was fractionally higher than the sill panels - and at least it was almost in between the front wheels.

Where some ICE car might dent their sump or scrape the gearbox/transfer case housing, an aluminium frame motor would suffer catastrophic damage if landed upon.
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